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You should see how Toyota got started. They aren't exactly ashamed of the fact that they reverse engineered a Chevrolet, its displayed quite proudly in their fa

You should see how Toyota got started. They aren't exactly ashamed of the fact that they reverse engineered a Chevrolet, its displayed quite proudly in their factory museum.

chaostheory 6y ago
You're right. Many Japanese products started out as copies of products from other companies in the West. However, within a few years, those same Japanese companies were producing original designs with no derivatives of foreign products. Has China gotten to that point yet? imo, it's really hard to achieve when you have a more collectivist culture vs an individualistic one that's ruled by an authoritarian government.
- chillacy 6y ago
  Japan and Korea have collectivist cultures and made that leap in the past 50 years. Singapore has an authoritarian government and also managed the leap. Has China gotten to that point yet for planes? No, they clearly just started. But they're clearly there for some industries like electronics where Shenzen is the place to be if you're building hardware startups.
  - chaostheory 6y ago
    > Japan and Korea have collectivist cultures and made that leap in the past 50 years. Singapore has an authoritarian government and also managed the leap. Japan and South Korea are both democratic republics. South Korea's economic seemed to transform overnight, once they transitioned from a dictatorship into a democratic republic. Like it or not, the lack of free speech has an economic cost. > Singapore has an authoritarian government and also managed the leap. Isn't Singapore more or less a democratic republic now? Singapore is also able to mitigate their own lack of creativity with immigration. I do not believe China has the same views regarding foreigners. I view Singapore more as an Asian Switzerland than a tech leader anyways. I also do not believe that Singapore's leaders believe in Mao style centralist control (of the economy at least) > Has China gotten to that point yet for planes? No, they clearly just started. They've been copying Russian aircraft for a while now. They haven't "just started". Before Xi, China was slowly moving in the right direction for global dominance. China under Xi is moving backwards.
    - yorwba 6y ago
      > South Korea's economic seemed to transform overnight, once they transitioned from a dictatorship into a democratic republic. Like it or not, the lack of free speech has an economic cost. If you look at actual data https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD.ZG?locations=KR https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD.ZG?locat... , you'll see that Korea has had high GDP-per-capita growth since as far back as the 1960s, with two years of shrinking: 1980 after the assassination of the dictator Park Chung-hee and 1998 after the Asian Financial Crisis, which was also the first time the ruling party let go of their power after losing a democratic election. The economic cost of lack of free speech isn't as great as the economic cost of uncertainty (because it discourages investing). Not knowing who the next dictator will be and not knowing who will win the next election are both sources of uncertainty.
      - chaostheory 6y ago
        Another argument would be that SK wouldn't have been able to maintain their GDP-per-capita growth without switching to a democratic republic.
        yorwba 6y ago
        That might seem like a good argument if you only look at the growth rate trending down under the authoritarian regime since the 1970s, but it's actually a bad argument because that trend continued unchanged after the democratic transition. So if democracy actually has some effect on economic performance, it's not strong enough to overcome broader trends. Which makes sense if you consider that authoritarians like making money, too, so blocking obvious productivity improvements would only be shooting themselves in the foot.
    - EliRivers 6y ago
      Isn't Singapore more or less a democratic republic now? Not much, no. Single party state, been in power forever, tame opposition parties allowed, ruling party never had anything less than a supermajority, individual leaders stay in power for decades, fines and jail sentences for questioning the independence of the judiciary.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- fabianhjr 6y ago
  I would argue they have and there are plenty of examples though the closest to aviation would be high speed railways. Their first trainsets were all manufactured with licensed technology (Hexie Hao) and as their demand for, and expertise on, trainsets increased they created new models from scratch (Fuxing Hao) that are consider technologically superior to other alternatives _and_ at a price advantage. (There are many reports on a recent push to start exporting those new Fuxing Hao trainsets that started operating in 2017)
  - SkyMarshal 6y ago
    I mean, China has working maglev trains. I’ve had the fortune to ride one. That’s certainly far beyond just another train set.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
    About Christmas the news of the rollout of a bullet freight train made the rounds. At 350kph - km/h or about 217mph. Looked only slightly modified from their passenger trains. One large sliding door in the middle of each car, with a folding out ramp, and where usually the passenger seats were, there is now something like in freight planes, where standardised freight containers easily slide into their positions via slots in the ground and rolls. Automatically! http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-12/24/c_139615873.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-12/24/c_139615873.htm (contains short video showing operations) That is a real FIRST! (Yah, Yah! color me impressed. But it IS impressive!)
naruvimama 6y ago
This is such a common practice even today. Many would be shocked to know that big name brands reverse engineer car brands that perhaps cost a fraction of their own because there is lot to learn. And the risk of competition is very high.

You should see how Toyota got started. They aren't exactly ashamed of the fact that they reverse engineered a Chevrolet, its displayed quite proudly in their factory museum.

chaostheory 6y ago

You're right. Many Japanese products started out as copies of products from other companies in the West. However, within a few years, those same Japanese companies were producing original designs with no derivatives of foreign products. Has China gotten to that point yet? imo, it's really hard to achieve when you have a more collectivist culture vs an individualistic one that's ruled by an authoritarian government.

chillacy 6y ago
Japan and Korea have collectivist cultures and made that leap in the past 50 years. Singapore has an authoritarian government and also managed the leap. Has China gotten to that point yet for planes? No, they clearly just started. But they're clearly there for some industries like electronics where Shenzen is the place to be if you're building hardware startups.
- chaostheory 6y ago
  > Japan and Korea have collectivist cultures and made that leap in the past 50 years. Singapore has an authoritarian government and also managed the leap. Japan and South Korea are both democratic republics. South Korea's economic seemed to transform overnight, once they transitioned from a dictatorship into a democratic republic. Like it or not, the lack of free speech has an economic cost. > Singapore has an authoritarian government and also managed the leap. Isn't Singapore more or less a democratic republic now? Singapore is also able to mitigate their own lack of creativity with immigration. I do not believe China has the same views regarding foreigners. I view Singapore more as an Asian Switzerland than a tech leader anyways. I also do not believe that Singapore's leaders believe in Mao style centralist control (of the economy at least) > Has China gotten to that point yet for planes? No, they clearly just started. They've been copying Russian aircraft for a while now. They haven't "just started". Before Xi, China was slowly moving in the right direction for global dominance. China under Xi is moving backwards.
  - yorwba 6y ago
    > South Korea's economic seemed to transform overnight, once they transitioned from a dictatorship into a democratic republic. Like it or not, the lack of free speech has an economic cost. If you look at actual data https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD.ZG?locations=KR https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD.ZG?locat... , you'll see that Korea has had high GDP-per-capita growth since as far back as the 1960s, with two years of shrinking: 1980 after the assassination of the dictator Park Chung-hee and 1998 after the Asian Financial Crisis, which was also the first time the ruling party let go of their power after losing a democratic election. The economic cost of lack of free speech isn't as great as the economic cost of uncertainty (because it discourages investing). Not knowing who the next dictator will be and not knowing who will win the next election are both sources of uncertainty.
    - chaostheory 6y ago
      Another argument would be that SK wouldn't have been able to maintain their GDP-per-capita growth without switching to a democratic republic.
      - yorwba 6y ago
        That might seem like a good argument if you only look at the growth rate trending down under the authoritarian regime since the 1970s, but it's actually a bad argument because that trend continued unchanged after the democratic transition. So if democracy actually has some effect on economic performance, it's not strong enough to overcome broader trends. Which makes sense if you consider that authoritarians like making money, too, so blocking obvious productivity improvements would only be shooting themselves in the foot.
  - EliRivers 6y ago
    Isn't Singapore more or less a democratic republic now? Not much, no. Single party state, been in power forever, tame opposition parties allowed, ruling party never had anything less than a supermajority, individual leaders stay in power for decades, fines and jail sentences for questioning the independence of the judiciary.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
fabianhjr 6y ago
I would argue they have and there are plenty of examples though the closest to aviation would be high speed railways. Their first trainsets were all manufactured with licensed technology (Hexie Hao) and as their demand for, and expertise on, trainsets increased they created new models from scratch (Fuxing Hao) that are consider technologically superior to other alternatives _and_ at a price advantage. (There are many reports on a recent push to start exporting those new Fuxing Hao trainsets that started operating in 2017)
- SkyMarshal 6y ago
  I mean, China has working maglev trains. I’ve had the fortune to ride one. That’s certainly far beyond just another train set.
- LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
  About Christmas the news of the rollout of a bullet freight train made the rounds. At 350kph - km/h or about 217mph. Looked only slightly modified from their passenger trains. One large sliding door in the middle of each car, with a folding out ramp, and where usually the passenger seats were, there is now something like in freight planes, where standardised freight containers easily slide into their positions via slots in the ground and rolls. Automatically! http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-12/24/c_139615873.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-12/24/c_139615873.htm (contains short video showing operations) That is a real FIRST! (Yah, Yah! color me impressed. But it IS impressive!)

naruvimama 6y ago

This is such a common practice even today. Many would be shocked to know that big name brands reverse engineer car brands that perhaps cost a fraction of their own because there is lot to learn. And the risk of competition is very high.