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Russia hacked both the DNC and the RNC. They only leaked DNC material (via their cutout Wikileaks so people can claim in bad faith it wasn't really Russia), and

by seppin 6y ago

Russia hacked both the DNC and the RNC. They only leaked DNC material (via their cutout Wikileaks so people can claim in bad faith it wasn't really Russia), and did so at the time it was most needed by the Trump campaign. If you consider receiving state-hacked materials and leaking them in perfect coordination with a political campaign (see Roger Stone indictment) journalism, then there's nothing else to discuss. Oh, and it wasn't just any political campaign. It was the campaign actively supported by the state actor that gave you the materials to begin with. All common coincidences in the journalism world I guess, right? > So based on something he did in 2016 Speculation no one can answer, ignored. > The need for intelligence agencies to keep their information secret is not more important than the accused's right to a fair trial. You aren't listening to what i'm saying. If you suspect someone of espionage and they are already sitting in prison of sex crime charges, you have no reason to expose the methods and sources you used to catch said person. And responding to any claim made exposes you publicly to confirm what you know and how you know it, which further damages your intelligence collection efforts. Which is why "show me the evidence" is not in good faith, especially not someone like Snoweden that knows damn well how intelligence works. He knows he won't get push back publicly, so he has complete ownership of the narrative. "None of my leaks results in anyone dying". The American IC is not going to list their assets that were executed in hostile countries as a result, for the reasons I mentioned. > accused's right to a fair trial Funny, both Assange and Snowden fled their respective "fair trails" to hide from justice. Neither had any intention of risking jail for "what they believe in" - yet some people still view them alongside whistleblowers that actually did.

boomboomsubban 6y ago
>If you consider receiving state-hacked materials and leaking them in perfect coordination with a political campaign (see Roger Stone indictment) journalism, As I don't consider Assange to be a Russian agent, I don't have any issues with them receiving state-hacked information. They are under no obligation to determine the source's motive. And they are free to coordinate with a political campaign, they have the freedom of assembly as well as of the press. The Roger Stone indictment was for obstruction of an official proceeding, false statements, and witness tampering. His discussions about Wikileaks weren't illegal, lying about them was. >Speculation no one can answer, ignored. What? You're the one claiming the DNC leaks prove they are a Russian agent. I don't agree, but I understand that argument. Then stretching it to include "Assange's official relationship with Russian military intelligence years before he hid in the Ecuadorian embassy" makes no sense to me. >. If you suspect someone of espionage and they are already sitting in prison of sex crime charges, you have no reason to expose the methods and sources you used to catch said person. I am listening to what you are saying, selective enforcement of laws absolutely violates your right to a fair trial. Without exposing their methods, we have no idea of those methods were constitutionally sound. They may not have any reason that benefits themselves, but I don't care. Further, Snowden isn't behind bars. Why didn't they expose their methods and prevent him leaving Hong Kong rather than block his passport while layovered in Russia? >Funny, both Assange and Snowden fled their respective "fair trails" to hide from justice. As Assange's extradition hearing and the numerous whistleblower trials over the past fifty years have shown, they had no expectation of a fair trial. Quoting Daniel Ellsberg about his case >(my) lawyer, exasperated, said he 'had never heard of a case where a defendant was not permitted to tell the jury why he did what he did.' The judge responded: 'Well, you're hearing one now'. And so it has been with every subsequent whistleblower under indictment.
- seppin 6y ago
  > And they are free to coordinate with a political campaign, they have the freedom of assembly as well as of the press. lol. "None of these things are crimes" is not the solid argument you think it is. To be a useful idiot aiding an autocratic government in their intelligence operations might not be technically illegal, but you give up all pretense of being "journalists" when you do so. > His discussions about Wikileaks weren't illegal Again, not what we are talking about. I'll take your constant efforts to move the goal posts from what constitutes journalism to what constitutes a crime as a tacit admission you don't have a leg to stand on. > Daniel Ellsberg A famous leaker is pro-leaker, what a shocking revelation. Difference is all of the pentagon papers were relevant to the ongoing crime of the Vietnam War. 95% of what Snowden leaked had nothing to do with domestic surveillance. Funny how that's never mentioned. Also, maybe listen to people that actually know what they're talking about in 2020. Here's a lawyer that specializes in representing intel officers in whistleblower cases, talking about how Snowden did have options, and it's a lie to say otherwise. https://twitter.com/MarkSZaidEsq/status/1339383062120062978 https://twitter.com/MarkSZaidEsq/status/1339383062120062978 He chose to run, he chose to avoid the consequences of his actions. And in more simple terms, a whistleblower is a legal term for something he chose not to be. He leaked, then ran away. Calling him a whistleblower is an insult to the brave people that actually did seek whistleblower protection in serious matters and were willing to testify and face the consequences.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    >but you give up all pretense of being "journalists" when you do so I do not have any idea what you consider to be journalism. Why would being a useful idiot make publishing politically relevant information eliminate your pretense of being a "journalist?" >Again, not what we are talking about. Then explain how Stone's indictment for spying is in anyway relevant to our discussion? I assumed you brought it up to claim Assange's actions were illegal, making prosecuting his actions not violate his freedom of the press. You just wanted to show he was in contact with GOP leaders? >famous leaker is pro-leaker, what a shocking revelation The relevant part was a judge saying he couldn't explain his actions. Assange's case was similarly run. They had no hope of a fair trial. I had not heard of Zaid, my research pulled up this exchange he had though >What result could Snowden have expected had he covered the bases and his butt by approaching an inspector general’s office or congressional committees? And replied >“Candidly,” Zaid said, “he likely would have been frustrated immensely with the lack of results from either, given the current posture.” Though he's a vocal critic of Snowden, even he found it unlikely that the "proper channels" would have netted results. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal_government/obamas-misleading-comment-on-whistleblower-protections/2013/08/12/eb567e3c-037f-11e3-9259-e2aafe5a5f84_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal_government/o... And on the subject of moving goal posts, why have you changed from trying to show them as Russian agents to not journalists/whistleblowers?

by seppin 6y ago

boomboomsubban 6y ago

>If you consider receiving state-hacked materials and leaking them in perfect coordination with a political campaign (see Roger Stone indictment) journalism, As I don't consider Assange to be a Russian agent, I don't have any issues with them receiving state-hacked information. They are under no obligation to determine the source's motive. And they are free to coordinate with a political campaign, they have the freedom of assembly as well as of the press. The Roger Stone indictment was for obstruction of an official proceeding, false statements, and witness tampering. His discussions about Wikileaks weren't illegal, lying about them was. >Speculation no one can answer, ignored. What? You're the one claiming the DNC leaks prove they are a Russian agent. I don't agree, but I understand that argument. Then stretching it to include "Assange's official relationship with Russian military intelligence years before he hid in the Ecuadorian embassy" makes no sense to me. >. If you suspect someone of espionage and they are already sitting in prison of sex crime charges, you have no reason to expose the methods and sources you used to catch said person. I am listening to what you are saying, selective enforcement of laws absolutely violates your right to a fair trial. Without exposing their methods, we have no idea of those methods were constitutionally sound. They may not have any reason that benefits themselves, but I don't care. Further, Snowden isn't behind bars. Why didn't they expose their methods and prevent him leaving Hong Kong rather than block his passport while layovered in Russia? >Funny, both Assange and Snowden fled their respective "fair trails" to hide from justice. As Assange's extradition hearing and the numerous whistleblower trials over the past fifty years have shown, they had no expectation of a fair trial. Quoting Daniel Ellsberg about his case >(my) lawyer, exasperated, said he 'had never heard of a case where a defendant was not permitted to tell the jury why he did what he did.' The judge responded: 'Well, you're hearing one now'. And so it has been with every subsequent whistleblower under indictment.

seppin 6y ago
> And they are free to coordinate with a political campaign, they have the freedom of assembly as well as of the press. lol. "None of these things are crimes" is not the solid argument you think it is. To be a useful idiot aiding an autocratic government in their intelligence operations might not be technically illegal, but you give up all pretense of being "journalists" when you do so. > His discussions about Wikileaks weren't illegal Again, not what we are talking about. I'll take your constant efforts to move the goal posts from what constitutes journalism to what constitutes a crime as a tacit admission you don't have a leg to stand on. > Daniel Ellsberg A famous leaker is pro-leaker, what a shocking revelation. Difference is all of the pentagon papers were relevant to the ongoing crime of the Vietnam War. 95% of what Snowden leaked had nothing to do with domestic surveillance. Funny how that's never mentioned. Also, maybe listen to people that actually know what they're talking about in 2020. Here's a lawyer that specializes in representing intel officers in whistleblower cases, talking about how Snowden did have options, and it's a lie to say otherwise. https://twitter.com/MarkSZaidEsq/status/1339383062120062978 https://twitter.com/MarkSZaidEsq/status/1339383062120062978 He chose to run, he chose to avoid the consequences of his actions. And in more simple terms, a whistleblower is a legal term for something he chose not to be. He leaked, then ran away. Calling him a whistleblower is an insult to the brave people that actually did seek whistleblower protection in serious matters and were willing to testify and face the consequences.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  >but you give up all pretense of being "journalists" when you do so I do not have any idea what you consider to be journalism. Why would being a useful idiot make publishing politically relevant information eliminate your pretense of being a "journalist?" >Again, not what we are talking about. Then explain how Stone's indictment for spying is in anyway relevant to our discussion? I assumed you brought it up to claim Assange's actions were illegal, making prosecuting his actions not violate his freedom of the press. You just wanted to show he was in contact with GOP leaders? >famous leaker is pro-leaker, what a shocking revelation The relevant part was a judge saying he couldn't explain his actions. Assange's case was similarly run. They had no hope of a fair trial. I had not heard of Zaid, my research pulled up this exchange he had though >What result could Snowden have expected had he covered the bases and his butt by approaching an inspector general’s office or congressional committees? And replied >“Candidly,” Zaid said, “he likely would have been frustrated immensely with the lack of results from either, given the current posture.” Though he's a vocal critic of Snowden, even he found it unlikely that the "proper channels" would have netted results. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal_government/obamas-misleading-comment-on-whistleblower-protections/2013/08/12/eb567e3c-037f-11e3-9259-e2aafe5a5f84_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal_government/o... And on the subject of moving goal posts, why have you changed from trying to show them as Russian agents to not journalists/whistleblowers?