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We’re switching to 4 days in 2021, with no pay cuts[0]. AMA :) [0] https://blog.gingerlime.com/2020/how-we-switched-to-4-day-weeks/ https://blog.gingerlime.com

We’re switching to 4 days in 2021, with no pay cuts[0]. AMA :) [0] https://blog.gingerlime.com/2020/how-we-switched-to-4-day-weeks/ https://blog.gingerlime.com/2020/how-we-switched-to-4-day-we...

Ryckes 6y ago
Do you find the salaries competitive within your location? What's the policy on remote work?
- gingerlime 6y ago
  We’re 100% remote already :) In terms of salaries they’re not too bad, but not amazing. We’re not a “real” startup or a tech company though. We hope to bump salaries as well next year...
bumby 6y ago
So I’m curious if you’ve built clear criteria for walking this back if it doesn’t work out? At my last employer, productivity was suffering and schedules were slipping on a 9/80 schedule. When management tried going back to 5 day work weeks, there was a near mutiny. Leadership eventually caved. I suspect the leadership is a core part of making this work. E.g., communicating clear expectations, holding people accountable etc.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Did you work for Treehouse? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17803163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17803163
  - bumby 6y ago
    I did not. It was a mix of public and private employees which creates additional dynamics
    - r00fus 6y ago
      Public sector vs. Private? What's a private employee?
      - bumby 6y ago
        One who does not get paid directly by the government. E.g., a contractor doing work for the government
- gingerlime 6y ago
  Great question! I guess we were optimistic and didn’t think about a rollback? We work in 6-week cycles with flexible scope. This is stolen from Basecamp. I think we’ll have to wait and see if the experiment matches results longer term. And yes, I’d say the co-founders enjoyed this freedom as much as (or more than?) our small team, so we’re all motivated to make it work!
  - bumby 6y ago
    While I’d be careful of an optimism bias, I think you’ll be ok if you’ve done well hiring the right kind of people. I hope it works out well so it can encourage others to do similar
- w1 6y ago
  I worked a 9/80 for years. It was awesome. I think the trick to this working well is for everyone to get the same Friday off. Companies who didn't do that saw serious productivity hits.
  - bumby 6y ago
    Where I worked, everyone had the same Fridays off. Unfortunately, that meant Thursdays became the new Friday with people taking long lunches, leaving early etc. As I left, they were integrating into the larger corporate structure to make sure everyone has the same Friday off beyond just our campus. It will be interesting to see if this helps productivity or if there aren’t enough projects that cross those org lines to make enough impact. 9/80 can be great if there’s a cultural fit with a mission centric focus. Ironically as the c-suite was considering going back to a 5 day schedule, people lower were pushing to go to a 8/80 schedule. I always got the impression people weren’t terribly mission focused, rationalizing why that would make them more productive when the data from the 9/80 switch ran counter to their claim. Honestly, they were one of the least productive orgs I’ve worked with
    - gingerlime 6y ago
      Do you think any schedule would make a difference?
      - bumby 6y ago
        I think in that particular case, a normal 5 day work week would have been more productive but less popular. The biggest glaring weakness was that there was a lack of accountability. I (and others) knew we could let projects slide, show up late for work regularly and never be confronted. (I tried my hardest not to take advantage of that fact). If one is only externally motivated, that’s a difficult culture to be productive. Long term, I think it can benefit. Former coworkers will never leave because they don’t want to lose their long weekends. However, that can be a double edged sword. I’m reminded about the quote of executives discussing whether or not to pay for staff training. One says, “But what if we train them and they leave!?” To which another says, “What if we don’t train them and they stay!?” If you’re hiring the wrong people and incentivizing them to stay, it may not be good long term. That’s why I think clear expectations and accountability are key. I think in the right organization, with the right leadership, a shorter work week can be more productive and more popular. While defining amorphous concepts like leadership and culture can be hard, I think they are integral to the issue. Low trust, low accountability organizations would struggle, I assume
sacredcows 6y ago
Your blog says starting Friday, 1st January, 2020. I assume you mean 2021?
- gingerlime 6y ago
  Thank you... hmmm I fixed it a while ago, maybe a caching issue? I’ll check EDIT: funny I made the same mistake in two places, but only fixed one before. Thanks again, it should be updated now.
  - yuchi 6y ago
    We all secretly hope 2020 was a blunder and we are starting from scratch.

We’re switching to 4 days in 2021, with no pay cuts[0]. AMA :) [0] https://blog.gingerlime.com/2020/how-we-switched-to-4-day-weeks/ https://blog.gingerlime.com/2020/how-we-switched-to-4-day-we...

Ryckes 6y ago

Do you find the salaries competitive within your location? What's the policy on remote work?

gingerlime 6y ago
We’re 100% remote already :) In terms of salaries they’re not too bad, but not amazing. We’re not a “real” startup or a tech company though. We hope to bump salaries as well next year...

bumby 6y ago

So I’m curious if you’ve built clear criteria for walking this back if it doesn’t work out? At my last employer, productivity was suffering and schedules were slipping on a 9/80 schedule. When management tried going back to 5 day work weeks, there was a near mutiny. Leadership eventually caved. I suspect the leadership is a core part of making this work. E.g., communicating clear expectations, holding people accountable etc.

Apocryphon 6y ago
Did you work for Treehouse? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17803163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17803163
- bumby 6y ago
  I did not. It was a mix of public and private employees which creates additional dynamics
  - r00fus 6y ago
    Public sector vs. Private? What's a private employee?
    - bumby 6y ago
      One who does not get paid directly by the government. E.g., a contractor doing work for the government
gingerlime 6y ago
Great question! I guess we were optimistic and didn’t think about a rollback? We work in 6-week cycles with flexible scope. This is stolen from Basecamp. I think we’ll have to wait and see if the experiment matches results longer term. And yes, I’d say the co-founders enjoyed this freedom as much as (or more than?) our small team, so we’re all motivated to make it work!
- bumby 6y ago
  While I’d be careful of an optimism bias, I think you’ll be ok if you’ve done well hiring the right kind of people. I hope it works out well so it can encourage others to do similar
w1 6y ago
I worked a 9/80 for years. It was awesome. I think the trick to this working well is for everyone to get the same Friday off. Companies who didn't do that saw serious productivity hits.
- bumby 6y ago
  Where I worked, everyone had the same Fridays off. Unfortunately, that meant Thursdays became the new Friday with people taking long lunches, leaving early etc. As I left, they were integrating into the larger corporate structure to make sure everyone has the same Friday off beyond just our campus. It will be interesting to see if this helps productivity or if there aren’t enough projects that cross those org lines to make enough impact. 9/80 can be great if there’s a cultural fit with a mission centric focus. Ironically as the c-suite was considering going back to a 5 day schedule, people lower were pushing to go to a 8/80 schedule. I always got the impression people weren’t terribly mission focused, rationalizing why that would make them more productive when the data from the 9/80 switch ran counter to their claim. Honestly, they were one of the least productive orgs I’ve worked with
  - gingerlime 6y ago
    Do you think any schedule would make a difference?
    - bumby 6y ago
      I think in that particular case, a normal 5 day work week would have been more productive but less popular. The biggest glaring weakness was that there was a lack of accountability. I (and others) knew we could let projects slide, show up late for work regularly and never be confronted. (I tried my hardest not to take advantage of that fact). If one is only externally motivated, that’s a difficult culture to be productive. Long term, I think it can benefit. Former coworkers will never leave because they don’t want to lose their long weekends. However, that can be a double edged sword. I’m reminded about the quote of executives discussing whether or not to pay for staff training. One says, “But what if we train them and they leave!?” To which another says, “What if we don’t train them and they stay!?” If you’re hiring the wrong people and incentivizing them to stay, it may not be good long term. That’s why I think clear expectations and accountability are key. I think in the right organization, with the right leadership, a shorter work week can be more productive and more popular. While defining amorphous concepts like leadership and culture can be hard, I think they are integral to the issue. Low trust, low accountability organizations would struggle, I assume

sacredcows 6y ago

Your blog says starting Friday, 1st January, 2020. I assume you mean 2021?

gingerlime 6y ago
Thank you... hmmm I fixed it a while ago, maybe a caching issue? I’ll check EDIT: funny I made the same mistake in two places, but only fixed one before. Thanks again, it should be updated now.
- yuchi 6y ago
  We all secretly hope 2020 was a blunder and we are starting from scratch.