4 ms·

Spaniard here. Male, 24. People are mainly protesting against bipartidism not addressing the country's problems and working together for the greater good of the

by saool 15y ago

Spaniard here. Male, 24. People are mainly protesting against bipartidism not addressing the country's problems and working together for the greater good of the country, since they only play dumb and fight childishly. The party in charge hasn't done shit about the whole economic crisis. First they tried to fool the people into thinking there was no crisis. When it was so obvious they couldn't keep lying, they passed some stuff that didn't really address the main problems (rigid two-tier labor market, too much spending on pointless bs, almost no-value added economy, too much regulation, and so on). They prefer to spend their time battling oh-so-important problems as fierce copyright laws or populating our roads with pickpocketing speed traps. Oh yeah right, and wether we should be able to speak to a civil servant in any of our languages (spanish is not the only language spoken in spain, almost every state has its own regional dialect/language, which are for the most part mutually intelligibility, but hey, let's make a big deal out of it anyways, who the fuck would care about easing conditions for the self-employed or the start-ups, right?). The opposition, luckily in such a good place to just play the nice guy part and thus get the job with a few good proposals, are drowned in their own pile of corruption-related shit and instead of making easy proposals to win voters back, they prefer to try countless aggressive ad-hominem attacks against the prime minister and his clique wishfully hoping they'll eventually step down. And while they all are pulling each other's hair as if this were a playground, there's +20% unemployment, +45% unemployment for young spaniards and a whole lot of just plain misery sweeping the country. I'm talking tonight-there's-no-dinner misery.

tluyben2 15y ago
Making it easy, attractive for the self-employed and start-ups is great and would really help; favorable tax, easy to fire people (horrible atm), etc. And last but not least; educating people that it is an option to start for yourself and that life is not all about maintaining the population their comfort level.
lyudmil 15y ago
Since you'll likely be directly involved politically in this issue (by protesting and/or voting), I urge you to read the comment I left as a reply to another comment further down the thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2558318 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2558318 It's important to understand the reasons for the crisis. Your leadership should take responsibility for what happened, but the voting public should develop and demand different policies from their successors. I think it's crucial to realize austerity could only make things worse and that it's currently being forced upon a number of the poorer EU countries (I'm also a citizen of one). I'm sure corruption is a problem, but in this case it goes much deeper and runs right into the almost religious adherence to neoliberal economics throughout Europe and the US.
- uriel 15y ago
  I'm sorry, but that is completely irrelevant to the situation in Spain, which among other things just suffered a housing bubble that almost makes the one in the US look like child's play. The employment market and other aspects of the Spanish economy are stuck in the middle ages. Surprisingly, the big Spanish banks were mostly responsible and have done better than banks in other countries, but the rest of the economy is bust because half was in the construction sector and the other half was is the government sector, you can't have a viable economy like that, you need private productive industries, and for that you need to make it possible for people to start new business and properly run existing business.
  - lyudmil 15y ago
    Well the construction sector is nothing like half of the economy (16% of GDP, 12% of employment before the crash). Still, if you have 16% of your economy collapse, you will have severe problems. However, the reason why it collapsed is the same reason it collapsed everywhere else in Europe - there was no financing. Your point simply doesn't contradict mine, except for your assertion that the private sector is the only way out. The private sector cannot currently be the solution because the money it depends on are in banks as I pointed out before. Banks aren't lending because of the problems on their balance sheets. The government, on the other hand, can print money and is the only institution that can do so, so it is your only option. My evidence in support of what I'm arguing is Germany, whose government intervened to stimulate the economy and currently has had less of a drop in employment than the US even though its GDP fell more. Work-sharing is the most prominent, and probably most successful, program in that regard. NOTE: I'm not arguing this is sustainable forever. What I'm arguing only applies to the current situation, which is anything but normal.
- saool 15y ago
  While fine-targeted spending can foster growth and productivity, that thing you've thought of about having one person digging and other one filling holes is completely wrong. How do I know? The idiot in charge in my country spent thousands of millions of euros developing that near-sighted idea to no avail. He just kept the housing-bubble men busy for a while longer. And then along came deficit.
uriel 15y ago
I left Spain many years ago, seems that nothing has changed (except except for the predictable and spectacular bust of the bubble). Often people ask me if I plan to go back to Spain, my answer has always been invariable "No way, are you mad? Why on earth would I want to go back?".
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- saool 15y ago
  Oh but it's so sunny! I feel you paisano. I'm 24, finishing my second BSc and will probably flee soon. Still it hurts so much to witness all this.
  - uriel 15y ago
    Sunny? One of the reasons I left is because I could not stand Summer at >45C.
    - saool 15y ago
      It's one of the most known cliches about Spain, isn't it? I find it funny since I'm from up north and we don't get that much of Canary Island-ish weather foreigners think of when they mention Spain. But yup summer in the south or the plains sucks sometimes.
      - tluyben2 15y ago
        Sure if you live on the coast in a bigger city it can be quite hot (I like it but I appear to be an exception; most people just whine about it, native or import alike), but if you just move to the mountains above the coastal cities the temp is just fine. Or the Sierra Nevada; fine there too. It's much greener too there. Of course then people whine they cannot see the sea and they came for the sea and the beach (but that's just import :)

by saool 15y ago

tluyben2 15y ago

Making it easy, attractive for the self-employed and start-ups is great and would really help; favorable tax, easy to fire people (horrible atm), etc. And last but not least; educating people that it is an option to start for yourself and that life is not all about maintaining the population their comfort level.

lyudmil 15y ago

Since you'll likely be directly involved politically in this issue (by protesting and/or voting), I urge you to read the comment I left as a reply to another comment further down the thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2558318 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2558318 It's important to understand the reasons for the crisis. Your leadership should take responsibility for what happened, but the voting public should develop and demand different policies from their successors. I think it's crucial to realize austerity could only make things worse and that it's currently being forced upon a number of the poorer EU countries (I'm also a citizen of one). I'm sure corruption is a problem, but in this case it goes much deeper and runs right into the almost religious adherence to neoliberal economics throughout Europe and the US.

uriel 15y ago
I'm sorry, but that is completely irrelevant to the situation in Spain, which among other things just suffered a housing bubble that almost makes the one in the US look like child's play. The employment market and other aspects of the Spanish economy are stuck in the middle ages. Surprisingly, the big Spanish banks were mostly responsible and have done better than banks in other countries, but the rest of the economy is bust because half was in the construction sector and the other half was is the government sector, you can't have a viable economy like that, you need private productive industries, and for that you need to make it possible for people to start new business and properly run existing business.
- lyudmil 15y ago
  Well the construction sector is nothing like half of the economy (16% of GDP, 12% of employment before the crash). Still, if you have 16% of your economy collapse, you will have severe problems. However, the reason why it collapsed is the same reason it collapsed everywhere else in Europe - there was no financing. Your point simply doesn't contradict mine, except for your assertion that the private sector is the only way out. The private sector cannot currently be the solution because the money it depends on are in banks as I pointed out before. Banks aren't lending because of the problems on their balance sheets. The government, on the other hand, can print money and is the only institution that can do so, so it is your only option. My evidence in support of what I'm arguing is Germany, whose government intervened to stimulate the economy and currently has had less of a drop in employment than the US even though its GDP fell more. Work-sharing is the most prominent, and probably most successful, program in that regard. NOTE: I'm not arguing this is sustainable forever. What I'm arguing only applies to the current situation, which is anything but normal.
saool 15y ago
While fine-targeted spending can foster growth and productivity, that thing you've thought of about having one person digging and other one filling holes is completely wrong. How do I know? The idiot in charge in my country spent thousands of millions of euros developing that near-sighted idea to no avail. He just kept the housing-bubble men busy for a while longer. And then along came deficit.

uriel 15y ago

I left Spain many years ago, seems that nothing has changed (except except for the predictable and spectacular bust of the bubble). Often people ask me if I plan to go back to Spain, my answer has always been invariable "No way, are you mad? Why on earth would I want to go back?".

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
saool 15y ago
Oh but it's so sunny! I feel you paisano. I'm 24, finishing my second BSc and will probably flee soon. Still it hurts so much to witness all this.
- uriel 15y ago
  Sunny? One of the reasons I left is because I could not stand Summer at >45C.
  - saool 15y ago
    It's one of the most known cliches about Spain, isn't it? I find it funny since I'm from up north and we don't get that much of Canary Island-ish weather foreigners think of when they mention Spain. But yup summer in the south or the plains sucks sometimes.
    - tluyben2 15y ago
      Sure if you live on the coast in a bigger city it can be quite hot (I like it but I appear to be an exception; most people just whine about it, native or import alike), but if you just move to the mountains above the coastal cities the temp is just fine. Or the Sierra Nevada; fine there too. It's much greener too there. Of course then people whine they cannot see the sea and they came for the sea and the beach (but that's just import :)