5 ms·

This is the typical “moat-and-bayley” characterisation. If the first side (pro-woke) were actually fighting for a better world (and not just in the name of bull

by tomp 6y ago

This is the typical “moat-and-bayley” characterisation. If the first side (pro-woke) were actually fighting for a better world (and not just in the name of bullying and vengeance), they’d have actual suggestions. “Defund the police” is a braindead 100% retarded and completely unrealistic idea. Reasonable alternatives are e.g. “stop the drug war”, “stop plea deals”, “reform the sentencing system”, “stop civil forfeiture”, etc. but clearly nobody is interested in actual solutions.

zeckalpha 6y ago
Those are pieces of the puzzle, but boring slogans that don’t get people’s attention. For example: https://www.mpd150.com/faq/ https://www.mpd150.com/faq/
- tomp 6y ago
  > we’re talking about a process of strategically reallocating resources, funding, and responsibility away from police and toward community-based models of safety, support, and prevention. Not really, just more of the same. Sounds completely delusional. Defensive violence (or a credible ability to project it) is the best cure for offensive violence. It exists in every society, either officially (cops) or unofficially (gangs, mafia, warlords, private guards, ...). All these "no police" proposals fail when trying to answer the most basic question, "what do I do when someone steals my car with my kid in it". Mind you - they're fully aware that the only possible answer is "violence" - either cops or private guns - which is why they're desperately trying to avoid having to answer this question. But this also makes all these proposals completely unworkable in reality. It's basically the same as idealistic communes - yeah, you can "peacefully coexist" in a "free for all, cooperative, no ownership, no conflict" society - as long as you outsource enough of the essentials (military, police, social security, emergency medical & fire services, ...) to the rest of the society. But there's no examples (and plenty of counter-examples) of an actual society (large, post-industrialized one) existing in this way.
  - zeckalpha 6y ago
    That’s still short term though. The root cause of people wanting to steal cars is not a lack of police. In the long term, we need to address the underlying root causes.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      For an idea to work, there needs to be a path from current state to desired state. > The root cause of people wanting to steal cars is not a lack of police If your idea takes as preconditions solving greed, poverty and mental illnesses, you're better of finding a different idea, one that's even remotely possible.
      - zeckalpha 6y ago
        It will take time, but why not take on those problems?
        edbob 6y ago
        "Take on" the problems while leaving our current protections against violence in place. "Defund the police" is accomplishing nothing other than making mainstream voters deeply suspicious that any "reforms" are actually designed to benefit gang members. You are creating a political climate which makes the problems nearly impossible to "take on" effectively.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
titanomachy 6y ago
The motte-and-bailey fallacy was new to me, thanks for introducing me to that idea! For what it's worth, the "woke" people that I know in the real world (not twitter) are in fact advocating the sorts of "actual solutions" you mentioned. I know some people pushing hard for police reform but not dismantling or defunding of police. Actually none of those ideas strike me as very controversial. The more controversial "real-world" woke ideas I've seen are around affirmative action, forced pay equality, etc. And yes, I understand the arguments against those things.

by tomp 6y ago

zeckalpha 6y ago

Those are pieces of the puzzle, but boring slogans that don’t get people’s attention. For example: https://www.mpd150.com/faq/ https://www.mpd150.com/faq/

tomp 6y ago
> we’re talking about a process of strategically reallocating resources, funding, and responsibility away from police and toward community-based models of safety, support, and prevention. Not really, just more of the same. Sounds completely delusional. Defensive violence (or a credible ability to project it) is the best cure for offensive violence. It exists in every society, either officially (cops) or unofficially (gangs, mafia, warlords, private guards, ...). All these "no police" proposals fail when trying to answer the most basic question, "what do I do when someone steals my car with my kid in it". Mind you - they're fully aware that the only possible answer is "violence" - either cops or private guns - which is why they're desperately trying to avoid having to answer this question. But this also makes all these proposals completely unworkable in reality. It's basically the same as idealistic communes - yeah, you can "peacefully coexist" in a "free for all, cooperative, no ownership, no conflict" society - as long as you outsource enough of the essentials (military, police, social security, emergency medical & fire services, ...) to the rest of the society. But there's no examples (and plenty of counter-examples) of an actual society (large, post-industrialized one) existing in this way.
- zeckalpha 6y ago
  That’s still short term though. The root cause of people wanting to steal cars is not a lack of police. In the long term, we need to address the underlying root causes.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    For an idea to work, there needs to be a path from current state to desired state. > The root cause of people wanting to steal cars is not a lack of police If your idea takes as preconditions solving greed, poverty and mental illnesses, you're better of finding a different idea, one that's even remotely possible.
    - zeckalpha 6y ago
      It will take time, but why not take on those problems?
      - edbob 6y ago
        "Take on" the problems while leaving our current protections against violence in place. "Defund the police" is accomplishing nothing other than making mainstream voters deeply suspicious that any "reforms" are actually designed to benefit gang members. You are creating a political climate which makes the problems nearly impossible to "take on" effectively.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]

titanomachy 6y ago

The motte-and-bailey fallacy was new to me, thanks for introducing me to that idea! For what it's worth, the "woke" people that I know in the real world (not twitter) are in fact advocating the sorts of "actual solutions" you mentioned. I know some people pushing hard for police reform but not dismantling or defunding of police. Actually none of those ideas strike me as very controversial. The more controversial "real-world" woke ideas I've seen are around affirmative action, forced pay equality, etc. And yes, I understand the arguments against those things.