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It is important to keep in mind that when security is working, you don't see any evidence of it. We don't actually know how many terrorist attacks have been sto

by darawk 6y ago

It is important to keep in mind that when security is working, you don't see any evidence of it. We don't actually know how many terrorist attacks have been stopped by this surveillance. It may well be a lot. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that many have been. Which is why it's so important that we do not ground criticisms of surveillance in arguments about efficacy. Surveillance is effective, or at least, it can be. Surveillance is wrong because it concentrates too much power in the hands of the government.

Animats 6y ago
We don't actually know how many terrorist attacks have been stopped by this surveillance. It may well be a lot. Actually, we do, because the FBI issues press releases when they succeed. Here's a relevant paper from an FBI study of "lone offender terrorism" [1] This guy fits the profile - white, some college, no major criminal history, not employed, marijuana user. [1] https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/lone-offender-terrorism-report-111319.pdf/view https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/lone-offender-terrorism-...
- darawk 6y ago
  This is a list of people who successfully carried out attacks, it looks like. Not people who's attacks were foiled.
  - ric2b 6y ago
    Because that second list would be empty. They would be shouting it from the rooftops if they were actually stopping attacks.
    - Animats 6y ago
      Which the FBI does. "Kenyan National Indicted For Conspiring To Hijack Aircraft On Behalf Of The Al Qaeda-Affiliated Terrorist Organization Al Shabaab. Cholo Abdi Abdullah Obtained Pilot Training and Researched How to Hijack Aircraft in Order to Conduct a 9/11-Style Attack at the Direction of al Shabaab."[1] Here's the FBI's list of terrorism-related press releases.[2] [1] https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/kenyan-national-indicted-conspiring-hijack-aircraft-behalf-al-qaeda-affiliated https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/kenyan-national-indicte... [2] https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism/news https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism/news
closeparen 6y ago
Domestic surveillance is going to tell you about Americans on American soil. Are you proposing that people in this category are getting quietly disappeared? To my knowledge we have to either charge these people with terrorism (definitely news), or wait until they’re abroad and do a drone strike (not viable with an imminent attack in the US). And the latter strategy was a huge deal the one time it’s known to have been done intentionally (al-Awlaki).
- darawk 6y ago
  There are tons of prosecutions of this sort. Consider the recent plot to kidnap Governor Whitmer as just one example among dozens.
  - sneak 6y ago
    According to the feds, they had CIs inside that organization. No illegal mass surveillance necessary for that, unless the CIs being there were illegal parallel construction in the first place.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > To my knowledge we have to either charge these people with terrorism (definitely news), or wait until they’re abroad and do a drone strike (not viable with an imminent attack in the US). Your knowledge is incorrect. Insofar as a person is an enemy combatant in law, they can be militarily detained without charges regardless of where they are caught and what their citizenship is (and, if they are charged and tried, it can be by military commission), see, Ex Part Quirin, 317 US 1 (1942), concerning exactly this question with regard to German saboteurs in WWII, two of which were US citizens and all of whom were captured on US soil. Also, insofar as they are enemy combatants, they may be engaged by the military with force anywhere in the world, regardless of citizenship and location. It would be silly if the military couldn't fight active enemies when they were in US territory but had to wait for them to leave, regardless of citizenship (for one thing, that would have made fighting the Civil War difficult for the Union.)

by darawk 6y ago

Animats 6y ago

We don't actually know how many terrorist attacks have been stopped by this surveillance. It may well be a lot. Actually, we do, because the FBI issues press releases when they succeed. Here's a relevant paper from an FBI study of "lone offender terrorism" [1] This guy fits the profile - white, some college, no major criminal history, not employed, marijuana user. [1] https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/lone-offender-terrorism-report-111319.pdf/view https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/lone-offender-terrorism-...

darawk 6y ago
This is a list of people who successfully carried out attacks, it looks like. Not people who's attacks were foiled.
- ric2b 6y ago
  Because that second list would be empty. They would be shouting it from the rooftops if they were actually stopping attacks.
  - Animats 6y ago
    Which the FBI does. "Kenyan National Indicted For Conspiring To Hijack Aircraft On Behalf Of The Al Qaeda-Affiliated Terrorist Organization Al Shabaab. Cholo Abdi Abdullah Obtained Pilot Training and Researched How to Hijack Aircraft in Order to Conduct a 9/11-Style Attack at the Direction of al Shabaab."[1] Here's the FBI's list of terrorism-related press releases.[2] [1] https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/kenyan-national-indicted-conspiring-hijack-aircraft-behalf-al-qaeda-affiliated https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/kenyan-national-indicte... [2] https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism/news https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism/news

closeparen 6y ago

Domestic surveillance is going to tell you about Americans on American soil. Are you proposing that people in this category are getting quietly disappeared? To my knowledge we have to either charge these people with terrorism (definitely news), or wait until they’re abroad and do a drone strike (not viable with an imminent attack in the US). And the latter strategy was a huge deal the one time it’s known to have been done intentionally (al-Awlaki).

darawk 6y ago
There are tons of prosecutions of this sort. Consider the recent plot to kidnap Governor Whitmer as just one example among dozens.
- sneak 6y ago
  According to the feds, they had CIs inside that organization. No illegal mass surveillance necessary for that, unless the CIs being there were illegal parallel construction in the first place.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> To my knowledge we have to either charge these people with terrorism (definitely news), or wait until they’re abroad and do a drone strike (not viable with an imminent attack in the US). Your knowledge is incorrect. Insofar as a person is an enemy combatant in law, they can be militarily detained without charges regardless of where they are caught and what their citizenship is (and, if they are charged and tried, it can be by military commission), see, Ex Part Quirin, 317 US 1 (1942), concerning exactly this question with regard to German saboteurs in WWII, two of which were US citizens and all of whom were captured on US soil. Also, insofar as they are enemy combatants, they may be engaged by the military with force anywhere in the world, regardless of citizenship and location. It would be silly if the military couldn't fight active enemies when they were in US territory but had to wait for them to leave, regardless of citizenship (for one thing, that would have made fighting the Civil War difficult for the Union.)