6 ms·

Tens of thousands in austerity protest in Spain

23 points by chailatte 15y ago

spottiness 15y ago
They won't solve any problem by protesting. Moreover, they're probably protesting for the wrong reasons. Spaniards are asking the government for jobs and decent salaries as if bureaucracy could solve these problems; and the more the government does, the worse it gets, because what the government should do is "nothing" but just get out of the way and let the free market take its course.
- alienfluid 15y ago
  I believe what people are protesting is that austerity measures, more often than not, are enforced upon services that benefit the middle to low income working class, rather than on the corporations that were complicit in creating the problem in the first place. They are protesting for a more balanced approach.
  - uriel 15y ago
    I'm sorry, but it was the middle class that went along with the insane bubble. The big Spanish banks, unlike banks in most other places, acted relatively responsibly and have not needed to be bailed out (the 'cajas', which are local banks controlled in part by politicians on the other hand are totally bust).
- xster 15y ago
  agree with @alienfluid. Bureaucracy cannot create economic value out of nothing but a transparent bureaucracy and accountability can prevent the need for austerity measures by preventing socialised losses and privatised gains by corporations
  - lyudmil 15y ago
    Well the weird thing is that in this particular situation, bureaucracy could indeed create some economic value. The current situation is this - we have a financial crisis set off by the collapse of the US housing market (the biggest single market in the world). Because of the financial instruments involved in financing US mortgages from 2002 - 2008 it's difficult for banks to tell how much any of their investments are indeed toxic debt, which means they don't know if they are solvent or not. Furthermore, they know all other banks are in the same situation, which means they are hesitant to lend to other banks, let alone consumers. So, we have a stagnant world economy even though we have production capacity and we have people in need of goods and services, because the money supply is essentially being hoarded by the financial institutions. In this situation the government is the only source of demand left. It could create this demand by investing smartly into infrastructure or paying someone to dig a whole and another person to fill it up. One is clearly better than the other, but in the short term they're both better than austerity. I hope I wasn't unclear. I think it's important that everybody realize this. These people might not have sophisticated reasons to protest austerity, but they are actually correct. EDIT: I hate to bitch about being down-voted. Please don't think this is about the karma, but it is disappointing. I think what I wrote clearly adds to the discussion. I suppose it's okay to vote down if you simply disagree, but I spent time constructing a thought-out response and I think at least a discussion of where I got it wrong is in order...
    - spottiness 15y ago
      Lyudmil, I disagree with you, yet I voted your posting up just to counteract those that wanted to silence you.
      - lyudmil 15y ago
        Thanks. I'd love to know how you disagree, though.
- saool 15y ago
  Most protests are actually about government's spending, corruption and overall blatant plutocracy: City councils not paying gardeners while the mayor says he's won the lotto for the 4th time in 5 years (obvious shameless money laundering that leaves the council with millions of debt). Banks pay-rolling whole parties to gain favor which is showed later on with no hint of shame. In some autonomous communities (Länder), a third of the politicians running for office have ongoing lawsuits about corruption. They just spend their entire hours wheeling and dealing while the countries becomes the next Argentina.
spottiness 15y ago
To those that degraded my comment: what I said is what I believe. Disagreeing is not a valid reason to put down the other person's opinion. If you want a debate, let's have it, but you have to respect what I say unless you prove that I'm wrong.
- VladRussian 15y ago
  >you have to respect what I say unless you prove that I'm wrong the ideology is like a religion, both are outside of the realm of reason, any attempts to prove something in that realm is stupid and futile. Respect it? What for?
  - spottiness 15y ago
    Respect if you don't have a better argument. Better in terms of logic, facts, and science. Respect if the other person is following logical implications. Religion is very easy to prove wrong, using logic, facts, and science. Disregarding another person's opinion just because you disagree, without explaining by way of logic why you're right and the other person is wrong, is axiomatically wrong. By the way, and this is just a suggestion to HN, those that down-vote based on whims or disagreements should be heavily penalized. It's correct to down-vote spam, trolls, offensive postings, or comments that add nothing, but it's very wrong to discard what others say simply because it's not the music that the powerful button clickers want to hear.
  - spottiness 15y ago
    VladRussian, I welcome your comment and your questions, and I responded. A question for you: Did you down-vote my comment?
    - VladRussian 15y ago
      Of course, and i explained why. You posted an ideology bit, a propaganda, and it litters discussion. Hundreds years ago, considering the body of knowledge back then, the ideas of the flat Earth or the ability of free market to exist on its own magic without necessary role of government were a reasonable theories. Today these ideas exist only as components of religious or ideological platforms, well outside of the body of scientific knowledge. >Religion is very easy to prove wrong, using logic, facts, and science. No. Check any good book or university course on the philosophy of science. Religion and "logic, facts, and science" are completely disjoint realms, and have no connection, intersection or whatsoever relation. Just for illustration : any of the following 5 ideas for example - "God created evolution", "God doesn't exist", "The Earth is flat as created by God", "There is only one God", "There are five Gods" - aren't in logical contradiction with each other as they belong to the realm of religion which is outside of the world of logic and science where notion of logical contradiction exists and limited to. The same way, any and all the 5 together of these ideas have no relation to or any effect on or affected in any way by any of the established scientific facts, like for example, evolution, pie=3.14... or "the Earth is round and flies around Sun" - as the facts belong to the realm of science which is disjoint with the realm of religion where the above mentioned ideas belong to. >Respect if you don't have a better argument. Better in terms of logic, facts, and science. Respect if the other person is following logical implications. once you have it and do it, i guess you'll see the respect you want.
unsigner 15y ago
"I have several degrees and speak many languages and still can't find a high-paying job" - well, maybe you should turn to whoever told you several (very likely liberal arts) degrees are in causal relation with a high-paying job?
- tluyben2 15y ago
  Exactly; for some reason people (and at least in western EU, more women than men) believe that they can just study something that has no economical value whatsoever but they 'like it so much' and then cry foul when there are no or badly paid jobs in those fields. It is bad in Spain for sure, but I'm not seeing the youth (or older actually) getting more creative unfortunately; the weird will to cling to what was (and doesn't work anymore) like 'the siesta' is painful to see.
  - pmarin 15y ago
    The mistake is to think having any degree and nothing else will give you a high paid job. In Spain there is too much "titulitis"
    - tluyben2 15y ago
      Or a job at all. Not so hard to teach people at university some quite simple numbers and statistics right? 'Ok, so you are going to specialize in Basque history; you do know that there are 4 jobs in need of that subject in whole of Spain right? And you'll earn nothing, your whole life?'.
- alvatar 15y ago
  Well, your assumption is wrong. There is actually such a high degree of unemployment that affects professionals like: biologists, doctors, architects and even engineers. I do have friends in that situation. I'm living in Madrid, just 10 minutes away from where everything is happening.
  - tluyben2 15y ago
saool 15y ago
Spaniard here. Male, 24. People are mainly protesting against bipartidism not addressing the country's problems and working together for the greater good of the country, since they only play dumb and fight childishly. The party in charge hasn't done shit about the whole economic crisis. First they tried to fool the people into thinking there was no crisis. When it was so obvious they couldn't keep lying, they passed some stuff that didn't really address the main problems (rigid two-tier labor market, too much spending on pointless bs, almost no-value added economy, too much regulation, and so on). They prefer to spend their time battling oh-so-important problems as fierce copyright laws or populating our roads with pickpocketing speed traps. Oh yeah right, and wether we should be able to speak to a civil servant in any of our languages (spanish is not the only language spoken in spain, almost every state has its own regional dialect/language, which are for the most part mutually intelligibility, but hey, let's make a big deal out of it anyways, who the fuck would care about easing conditions for the self-employed or the start-ups, right?). The opposition, luckily in such a good place to just play the nice guy part and thus get the job with a few good proposals, are drowned in their own pile of corruption-related shit and instead of making easy proposals to win voters back, they prefer to try countless aggressive ad-hominem attacks against the prime minister and his clique wishfully hoping they'll eventually step down. And while they all are pulling each other's hair as if this were a playground, there's +20% unemployment, +45% unemployment for young spaniards and a whole lot of just plain misery sweeping the country. I'm talking tonight-there's-no-dinner misery.
- tluyben2 15y ago
  Making it easy, attractive for the self-employed and start-ups is great and would really help; favorable tax, easy to fire people (horrible atm), etc. And last but not least; educating people that it is an option to start for yourself and that life is not all about maintaining the population their comfort level.
- lyudmil 15y ago
  Since you'll likely be directly involved politically in this issue (by protesting and/or voting), I urge you to read the comment I left as a reply to another comment further down the thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2558318 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2558318 It's important to understand the reasons for the crisis. Your leadership should take responsibility for what happened, but the voting public should develop and demand different policies from their successors. I think it's crucial to realize austerity could only make things worse and that it's currently being forced upon a number of the poorer EU countries (I'm also a citizen of one). I'm sure corruption is a problem, but in this case it goes much deeper and runs right into the almost religious adherence to neoliberal economics throughout Europe and the US.
johnnyg 15y ago
You can't protest your way out of being broke, which is the ultimate truth of this situation.
- kongqiu 15y ago
  On a material level, no, protest cannot create any new goods. But on a sociopolitical level, protest can force change that can lead to different allocations of resources (or human rights, a la the Civil Rights era in the US).
pmarin 15y ago
I wonder what had happened if the the government were the PP...

23 points by chailatte 15y ago

They won't solve any problem by protesting. Moreover, they're probably protesting for the wrong reasons. Spaniards are asking the government for jobs and decent salaries as if bureaucracy could solve these problems; and the more the government does, the worse it gets, because what the government should do is "nothing" but just get out of the way and let the free market take its course.

alienfluid 15y ago
I believe what people are protesting is that austerity measures, more often than not, are enforced upon services that benefit the middle to low income working class, rather than on the corporations that were complicit in creating the problem in the first place. They are protesting for a more balanced approach.
- uriel 15y ago
  I'm sorry, but it was the middle class that went along with the insane bubble. The big Spanish banks, unlike banks in most other places, acted relatively responsibly and have not needed to be bailed out (the 'cajas', which are local banks controlled in part by politicians on the other hand are totally bust).
xster 15y ago
agree with @alienfluid. Bureaucracy cannot create economic value out of nothing but a transparent bureaucracy and accountability can prevent the need for austerity measures by preventing socialised losses and privatised gains by corporations
- lyudmil 15y ago
  Well the weird thing is that in this particular situation, bureaucracy could indeed create some economic value. The current situation is this - we have a financial crisis set off by the collapse of the US housing market (the biggest single market in the world). Because of the financial instruments involved in financing US mortgages from 2002 - 2008 it's difficult for banks to tell how much any of their investments are indeed toxic debt, which means they don't know if they are solvent or not. Furthermore, they know all other banks are in the same situation, which means they are hesitant to lend to other banks, let alone consumers. So, we have a stagnant world economy even though we have production capacity and we have people in need of goods and services, because the money supply is essentially being hoarded by the financial institutions. In this situation the government is the only source of demand left. It could create this demand by investing smartly into infrastructure or paying someone to dig a whole and another person to fill it up. One is clearly better than the other, but in the short term they're both better than austerity. I hope I wasn't unclear. I think it's important that everybody realize this. These people might not have sophisticated reasons to protest austerity, but they are actually correct. EDIT: I hate to bitch about being down-voted. Please don't think this is about the karma, but it is disappointing. I think what I wrote clearly adds to the discussion. I suppose it's okay to vote down if you simply disagree, but I spent time constructing a thought-out response and I think at least a discussion of where I got it wrong is in order...
  - spottiness 15y ago
    Lyudmil, I disagree with you, yet I voted your posting up just to counteract those that wanted to silence you.
    - lyudmil 15y ago
      Thanks. I'd love to know how you disagree, though.
saool 15y ago
Most protests are actually about government's spending, corruption and overall blatant plutocracy: City councils not paying gardeners while the mayor says he's won the lotto for the 4th time in 5 years (obvious shameless money laundering that leaves the council with millions of debt). Banks pay-rolling whole parties to gain favor which is showed later on with no hint of shame. In some autonomous communities (Länder), a third of the politicians running for office have ongoing lawsuits about corruption. They just spend their entire hours wheeling and dealing while the countries becomes the next Argentina.

spottiness 15y ago

To those that degraded my comment: what I said is what I believe. Disagreeing is not a valid reason to put down the other person's opinion. If you want a debate, let's have it, but you have to respect what I say unless you prove that I'm wrong.

VladRussian 15y ago
>you have to respect what I say unless you prove that I'm wrong the ideology is like a religion, both are outside of the realm of reason, any attempts to prove something in that realm is stupid and futile. Respect it? What for?
- spottiness 15y ago
  Respect if you don't have a better argument. Better in terms of logic, facts, and science. Respect if the other person is following logical implications. Religion is very easy to prove wrong, using logic, facts, and science. Disregarding another person's opinion just because you disagree, without explaining by way of logic why you're right and the other person is wrong, is axiomatically wrong. By the way, and this is just a suggestion to HN, those that down-vote based on whims or disagreements should be heavily penalized. It's correct to down-vote spam, trolls, offensive postings, or comments that add nothing, but it's very wrong to discard what others say simply because it's not the music that the powerful button clickers want to hear.
- spottiness 15y ago
  VladRussian, I welcome your comment and your questions, and I responded. A question for you: Did you down-vote my comment?
  - VladRussian 15y ago
    Of course, and i explained why. You posted an ideology bit, a propaganda, and it litters discussion. Hundreds years ago, considering the body of knowledge back then, the ideas of the flat Earth or the ability of free market to exist on its own magic without necessary role of government were a reasonable theories. Today these ideas exist only as components of religious or ideological platforms, well outside of the body of scientific knowledge. >Religion is very easy to prove wrong, using logic, facts, and science. No. Check any good book or university course on the philosophy of science. Religion and "logic, facts, and science" are completely disjoint realms, and have no connection, intersection or whatsoever relation. Just for illustration : any of the following 5 ideas for example - "God created evolution", "God doesn't exist", "The Earth is flat as created by God", "There is only one God", "There are five Gods" - aren't in logical contradiction with each other as they belong to the realm of religion which is outside of the world of logic and science where notion of logical contradiction exists and limited to. The same way, any and all the 5 together of these ideas have no relation to or any effect on or affected in any way by any of the established scientific facts, like for example, evolution, pie=3.14... or "the Earth is round and flies around Sun" - as the facts belong to the realm of science which is disjoint with the realm of religion where the above mentioned ideas belong to. >Respect if you don't have a better argument. Better in terms of logic, facts, and science. Respect if the other person is following logical implications. once you have it and do it, i guess you'll see the respect you want.

unsigner 15y ago

"I have several degrees and speak many languages and still can't find a high-paying job" - well, maybe you should turn to whoever told you several (very likely liberal arts) degrees are in causal relation with a high-paying job?

tluyben2 15y ago
Exactly; for some reason people (and at least in western EU, more women than men) believe that they can just study something that has no economical value whatsoever but they 'like it so much' and then cry foul when there are no or badly paid jobs in those fields. It is bad in Spain for sure, but I'm not seeing the youth (or older actually) getting more creative unfortunately; the weird will to cling to what was (and doesn't work anymore) like 'the siesta' is painful to see.
- pmarin 15y ago
  The mistake is to think having any degree and nothing else will give you a high paid job. In Spain there is too much "titulitis"
  - tluyben2 15y ago
    Or a job at all. Not so hard to teach people at university some quite simple numbers and statistics right? 'Ok, so you are going to specialize in Basque history; you do know that there are 4 jobs in need of that subject in whole of Spain right? And you'll earn nothing, your whole life?'.
alvatar 15y ago
Well, your assumption is wrong. There is actually such a high degree of unemployment that affects professionals like: biologists, doctors, architects and even engineers. I do have friends in that situation. I'm living in Madrid, just 10 minutes away from where everything is happening.
- tluyben2 15y ago

saool 15y ago

Spaniard here. Male, 24. People are mainly protesting against bipartidism not addressing the country's problems and working together for the greater good of the country, since they only play dumb and fight childishly. The party in charge hasn't done shit about the whole economic crisis. First they tried to fool the people into thinking there was no crisis. When it was so obvious they couldn't keep lying, they passed some stuff that didn't really address the main problems (rigid two-tier labor market, too much spending on pointless bs, almost no-value added economy, too much regulation, and so on). They prefer to spend their time battling oh-so-important problems as fierce copyright laws or populating our roads with pickpocketing speed traps. Oh yeah right, and wether we should be able to speak to a civil servant in any of our languages (spanish is not the only language spoken in spain, almost every state has its own regional dialect/language, which are for the most part mutually intelligibility, but hey, let's make a big deal out of it anyways, who the fuck would care about easing conditions for the self-employed or the start-ups, right?). The opposition, luckily in such a good place to just play the nice guy part and thus get the job with a few good proposals, are drowned in their own pile of corruption-related shit and instead of making easy proposals to win voters back, they prefer to try countless aggressive ad-hominem attacks against the prime minister and his clique wishfully hoping they'll eventually step down. And while they all are pulling each other's hair as if this were a playground, there's +20% unemployment, +45% unemployment for young spaniards and a whole lot of just plain misery sweeping the country. I'm talking tonight-there's-no-dinner misery.

tluyben2 15y ago
Making it easy, attractive for the self-employed and start-ups is great and would really help; favorable tax, easy to fire people (horrible atm), etc. And last but not least; educating people that it is an option to start for yourself and that life is not all about maintaining the population their comfort level.
lyudmil 15y ago
Since you'll likely be directly involved politically in this issue (by protesting and/or voting), I urge you to read the comment I left as a reply to another comment further down the thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2558318 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2558318 It's important to understand the reasons for the crisis. Your leadership should take responsibility for what happened, but the voting public should develop and demand different policies from their successors. I think it's crucial to realize austerity could only make things worse and that it's currently being forced upon a number of the poorer EU countries (I'm also a citizen of one). I'm sure corruption is a problem, but in this case it goes much deeper and runs right into the almost religious adherence to neoliberal economics throughout Europe and the US.

johnnyg 15y ago

You can't protest your way out of being broke, which is the ultimate truth of this situation.

kongqiu 15y ago
On a material level, no, protest cannot create any new goods. But on a sociopolitical level, protest can force change that can lead to different allocations of resources (or human rights, a la the Civil Rights era in the US).

pmarin 15y ago

I wonder what had happened if the the government were the PP...