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Hmm...from a tech porn perspective it’s a cool little gadget. But given the shadow surveillance and police state that was erected post 9/11 and how often “natio

Hmm...from a tech porn perspective it’s a cool little gadget. But given the shadow surveillance and police state that was erected post 9/11 and how often “national security” outfits have been caught playing fast and loose with the laws of the land, there is a good chance that bugs like this one will be eventually be used to illegally spy on domestic dissidents and whistleblowers. Governments in most western countries have thrown out habeas corpus and have given themselves the right to indefinitely ‘disappear’ anyone they arbitrarily deem a threat to national security. Julian Assange and Edward Snowden come to mind. I wouldn’t trust governments and intelligence services in the post-democratic west with this technology any more than I’d trust their counterparts in “classic” totalitarian states.

XorNot 6y ago
This is just ridiculous. Why if you were going to illegally spy on people would you use a highly visible and noisy drone when the vast majority of the population live in urban areas where CCTV cameras are common and phone lines conveniently run out to steel covers in the streets (and the entire population is carrying GPS enabled tracking devices full of security flaws?) There's "oh no our liberties" but that train came and went and this particular device has nothing to do with it.
- deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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- colordrops 6y ago
  It's not either-or.
- thom 6y ago
  I'm not overly worried by what the government plans to do with this tech, more than any other tech they use for nefarious purposes. I _am_ worried by the endgame of publicly available drone tech though, because it's very difficult to see how technically or legislatively we can avoid a future with tiny untraceable drones with long battery lives, that record audio and video and can go anywhere. The arms race that is going to be necessary to secure your home and workplace against these is going to be very expensive and ugly, and many people are going to have to settle with every conversation and sexual encounter they have being in public, if only for the lulz. Privacy, like the fight against piracy, isn't going to be defeated because it's desirable or not, but rather just because the technology and temptation is inevitable.
samatman 6y ago
It's basically a camo DJI Mini that probably costs fifty times as much. Cute little drone, the Mini. I keep having to tell myself I don't need one.
mrschwabe 6y ago
Indeed. And while we're at it take things to their logical conclusion; seriously consider the implications of this tek + combined with 'AI' for not only navigation but for policing decisions. When you remove the human element from policing, there is thus then no human empathy in the decision to use force ie- to arrest or kill, if that is the 'command' said AI internally commands itself to do.
jjeaff 6y ago
>Governments in most western countries have thrown out habeas corpus and have given themselves the right to indefinitely ‘disappear’ anyone they arbitrarily deem a threat to national security. Julian Assange and Edward Snowden come to mind. Neither of those seem to be examples of habeas corpus being thrown out. Neither were "disappeared" and the court systems were used against Assange and nothing has happened to Snowden as of yet except for the legal system being used to try to keep him from earning money from his book.
- secfirstmd 6y ago
  Whoa that's a bit of a US Centric broad brush there. "Most Western Countries" - there's more to the West than the US, UK and less than half a dozenish who have or are doing that. I'm Irish and the vast majority of the EU and other Western Countries (however that is defined) aren't in the business of disappearing people.
  - peteretep 6y ago
    > I'm Irish and the vast majority of the EU and other Western Countries (however that is defined) aren't in the business of disappearing people. How would you know? The point of disappearing people is that they disappear, and you don't know how.
    - dash2 6y ago
      The OP’s claim was that governments have given themselves the right to disappear people. That’s a legal change which couldn’t be done without the standard public process. Also, in general, when people are arbitrarily detained or disappeared, the outside world does hear about it, even in highly authoritarian regimes (see eg the Amnesty website for plenty of examples).
  - StreamBright 6y ago
    US agencies operate in "Most Western Countries". - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44313905 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44313905 - https://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+IM-PRESS+20060626BKG09303+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN&language=EN https://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP/... - https://www.npr.org/2020/03/05/812499752/uncovering-the-cias-audacious-operation-that-gave-them-access-to-state-secrets?t=1609314691962 https://www.npr.org/2020/03/05/812499752/uncovering-the-cias... - https://theintercept.com/2015/09/28/death-athens-rogue-nsa-operation/ https://theintercept.com/2015/09/28/death-athens-rogue-nsa-o...
na85 6y ago
>there is a good chance that bugs like this one will be eventually be used to illegally spy on domestic dissidents and whistleblowers. I'd say there's a 100% certainty this will happen.
dash2 6y ago
There are probably bigger worries in the surveillance area already (smartphones etc). I’d be more concerned about their potential use for assassination. How heavy does a bomb have to be?
- Leherenn 6y ago
  Assassination of whom? The result isn't exactly discreet, it's not going to be used locally to target inconvenient persons in the UK. If we're talking about conflicts, then I don't see how it's better or worse than a predator.
  - dash2 6y ago
    What if you wanted to kill a foreign head of state and not to reveal who did it? Would this be easier to hide than with a Predator?
    - playcache 6y ago
      There are much easier methods to hide than a drone. They typically use vulnerable or compromised individuals with no paper trial back to the perputrators to do these sorts of assassinations.
ajsnigrutin 6y ago
Drones are fucking loud, and the video stream can be detected while transmitted via the air (with an sdr card or something similar). Signals can also be jammed, and combined with gps jamming, the drone will "get lost", and probably land at its current location (and hopefully not just drop out of the sky when the batteries are empty). And this is not james bond level of knowledge and equipment, but something a better ham radio operator or a better engineering student can do with sme preparation.
- paganel 6y ago
  > And this is not james bond level of knowledge and equipment, but something a better ham radio operator or a better engineering student can do with sme preparation. I suppose there are not that many engineering students or ham radio operators in the poorer parts of the cities, where I for myself think that these things will first be used internally. At least video-cameras you can try and bring them down with simple rocks [1] or by cutting the electricity down on that pole (that is if they're not battery-powered), not so easy with these type of machines. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=74&v=E1ABR4UpDSU&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=74&v=E1ABR4UpDSU&feature=you...
- jack_riminton 6y ago
  Yeah it’s designed for the battlefield so amongst all the bangs it’ll most definitely go unnoticed
bayesian_horse 6y ago
This is hardly surveillance technology. Yes it's a camera drone for the military. Big deal. It's also extremely noisy. The government can put cameras wherever and on whatever platform it damnwell wants - and is allowed to. Really the only way to control the consequences is to restrict those places, platforms and what is done with the data, through laws and regulations. You know, like in a democracy. If that's not possible, a camera on a particularly cute drone is the least of your problems.
scottlocklin 6y ago
> there is a good chance that bugs like this one will be eventually be used to illegally spy on domestic dissidents and whistleblowers. These things and considerably smaller were fielded 10 years ago by the US; you could bid on SBIR contracts to remedy some of their defects.

XorNot 6y ago

This is just ridiculous. Why if you were going to illegally spy on people would you use a highly visible and noisy drone when the vast majority of the population live in urban areas where CCTV cameras are common and phone lines conveniently run out to steel covers in the streets (and the entire population is carrying GPS enabled tracking devices full of security flaws?) There's "oh no our liberties" but that train came and went and this particular device has nothing to do with it.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
colordrops 6y ago
It's not either-or.
thom 6y ago
I'm not overly worried by what the government plans to do with this tech, more than any other tech they use for nefarious purposes. I _am_ worried by the endgame of publicly available drone tech though, because it's very difficult to see how technically or legislatively we can avoid a future with tiny untraceable drones with long battery lives, that record audio and video and can go anywhere. The arms race that is going to be necessary to secure your home and workplace against these is going to be very expensive and ugly, and many people are going to have to settle with every conversation and sexual encounter they have being in public, if only for the lulz. Privacy, like the fight against piracy, isn't going to be defeated because it's desirable or not, but rather just because the technology and temptation is inevitable.

samatman 6y ago

It's basically a camo DJI Mini that probably costs fifty times as much. Cute little drone, the Mini. I keep having to tell myself I don't need one.

mrschwabe 6y ago

Indeed. And while we're at it take things to their logical conclusion; seriously consider the implications of this tek + combined with 'AI' for not only navigation but for policing decisions. When you remove the human element from policing, there is thus then no human empathy in the decision to use force ie- to arrest or kill, if that is the 'command' said AI internally commands itself to do.

jjeaff 6y ago

>Governments in most western countries have thrown out habeas corpus and have given themselves the right to indefinitely ‘disappear’ anyone they arbitrarily deem a threat to national security. Julian Assange and Edward Snowden come to mind. Neither of those seem to be examples of habeas corpus being thrown out. Neither were "disappeared" and the court systems were used against Assange and nothing has happened to Snowden as of yet except for the legal system being used to try to keep him from earning money from his book.

secfirstmd 6y ago
Whoa that's a bit of a US Centric broad brush there. "Most Western Countries" - there's more to the West than the US, UK and less than half a dozenish who have or are doing that. I'm Irish and the vast majority of the EU and other Western Countries (however that is defined) aren't in the business of disappearing people.
- peteretep 6y ago
  > I'm Irish and the vast majority of the EU and other Western Countries (however that is defined) aren't in the business of disappearing people. How would you know? The point of disappearing people is that they disappear, and you don't know how.
  - dash2 6y ago
    The OP’s claim was that governments have given themselves the right to disappear people. That’s a legal change which couldn’t be done without the standard public process. Also, in general, when people are arbitrarily detained or disappeared, the outside world does hear about it, even in highly authoritarian regimes (see eg the Amnesty website for plenty of examples).
- StreamBright 6y ago
  US agencies operate in "Most Western Countries". - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44313905 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44313905 - https://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+IM-PRESS+20060626BKG09303+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN&language=EN https://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP/... - https://www.npr.org/2020/03/05/812499752/uncovering-the-cias-audacious-operation-that-gave-them-access-to-state-secrets?t=1609314691962 https://www.npr.org/2020/03/05/812499752/uncovering-the-cias... - https://theintercept.com/2015/09/28/death-athens-rogue-nsa-operation/ https://theintercept.com/2015/09/28/death-athens-rogue-nsa-o...

na85 6y ago

>there is a good chance that bugs like this one will be eventually be used to illegally spy on domestic dissidents and whistleblowers. I'd say there's a 100% certainty this will happen.

dash2 6y ago

There are probably bigger worries in the surveillance area already (smartphones etc). I’d be more concerned about their potential use for assassination. How heavy does a bomb have to be?

Leherenn 6y ago
Assassination of whom? The result isn't exactly discreet, it's not going to be used locally to target inconvenient persons in the UK. If we're talking about conflicts, then I don't see how it's better or worse than a predator.
- dash2 6y ago
  What if you wanted to kill a foreign head of state and not to reveal who did it? Would this be easier to hide than with a Predator?
  - playcache 6y ago
    There are much easier methods to hide than a drone. They typically use vulnerable or compromised individuals with no paper trial back to the perputrators to do these sorts of assassinations.

ajsnigrutin 6y ago

Drones are fucking loud, and the video stream can be detected while transmitted via the air (with an sdr card or something similar). Signals can also be jammed, and combined with gps jamming, the drone will "get lost", and probably land at its current location (and hopefully not just drop out of the sky when the batteries are empty). And this is not james bond level of knowledge and equipment, but something a better ham radio operator or a better engineering student can do with sme preparation.

paganel 6y ago
> And this is not james bond level of knowledge and equipment, but something a better ham radio operator or a better engineering student can do with sme preparation. I suppose there are not that many engineering students or ham radio operators in the poorer parts of the cities, where I for myself think that these things will first be used internally. At least video-cameras you can try and bring them down with simple rocks [1] or by cutting the electricity down on that pole (that is if they're not battery-powered), not so easy with these type of machines. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=74&v=E1ABR4UpDSU&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=74&v=E1ABR4UpDSU&feature=you...
jack_riminton 6y ago
Yeah it’s designed for the battlefield so amongst all the bangs it’ll most definitely go unnoticed

bayesian_horse 6y ago

This is hardly surveillance technology. Yes it's a camera drone for the military. Big deal. It's also extremely noisy. The government can put cameras wherever and on whatever platform it damnwell wants - and is allowed to. Really the only way to control the consequences is to restrict those places, platforms and what is done with the data, through laws and regulations. You know, like in a democracy. If that's not possible, a camera on a particularly cute drone is the least of your problems.

scottlocklin 6y ago

> there is a good chance that bugs like this one will be eventually be used to illegally spy on domestic dissidents and whistleblowers. These things and considerably smaller were fielded 10 years ago by the US; you could bid on SBIR contracts to remedy some of their defects.