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There is a big difference between slave/forced labor and paying for cheap labor. Majority of your examples state something along the lines of "paying inmates p

by Alupis 6y ago

There is a big difference between slave/forced labor and paying for cheap labor. Majority of your examples state something along the lines of "paying inmates peanuts to make expensive things"... which literally is not the definition of slave labor. The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps. There is no comparison with any of the things in your list. Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - jobs, training and skills to inmates is a net win for everyone involved, and is a core component in rehabilitation - directly combating rescindance.

mike_h 6y ago
“The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps” Actually it’s not... did you read it? The central allegation is that a few thousand Xinjiang Muslims were offered employment possibly in exchange for political indoctrination. There’s a side allegation that prisoners are also being put to work in factories. There’s no allegation let alone evidence that this is without compensation. And the pennies offered in US prisons hardly count, and certainly don’t absolve the US justice system of the conflict of interest one can allege upon seeing how profitable it is for localities to throw people in jail.
- Alupis 6y ago
  > “The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps” > > Actually it’s not... did you read it? Yes, but apparently you did not. Here's the quote: > Xinjiang, in the far reaches of Western China bordering Afghanistan, Pakistan and other Muslim-majority countries, is facing a brutal crackdown by China’s government, which has placed more than a million Muslims in concentration camps or forced them to work in factories making everything from cotton to soft drinks to electronics. Trying to spin this off as some sort of voluntary job thing is extremely disingenuous. Almost as disingenuous as trying to spin paid prison labor in the US as slave labor.
  - mike_h 6y ago
    That’s side-allegation, not what this article is about. And it’s a debatable one.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      Are we reading the same article? You stated: > The central allegation is that a few thousand Xinjiang Muslims were offered employment possibly in exchange for political indoctrination It's a million, and they were not offered employment. They were "transferred" and forced to work in factories, among other places.
      - zm262 6y ago
        Did you know how such a whole number of one million come to be? Apparently eight persons were asked about their heresay and then someone extend the result to the whole population of xinjiang..
    - wolverine876 6y ago
      Simply do a quick search for Xinjiang forced labor; you will find endless reports from the world's most credible sources. What is your basis for saying it's debatable? You argue every point, but what do you think should be done?
  - darig 6y ago
    You're doing a fair bit of disingenuous spinning yourself there, chief.
- mcguire 6y ago
  "...Xinjiang Muslims were offered employment possibly in exchange for political indoctrination." "Offered employment in exchange for political indoctrination"? What exactly does that mean?
arentyouspecial 6y ago
Oh yeah, these companies are totally doing this for the public good and not just simply exploiting cheap labor. And considering how hard it is for an ex con to get a job, I doubt this has any major impact on recidivism.
- Alupis 6y ago
  That is a debate worth having - but calling cheaply paid prison labor "Slave Labor", or equivocating it to Chinese Forced Labor Camps is disingenuous and dishonest. They are flatly not the same, even if you believe it's debatably exploitive.
  - arentyouspecial 6y ago
    Considering the rise of convict leasing programs across the south after the passing of the 13th amendment, I’d say there was very little difference. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_leasing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_leasing
    - Alupis 6y ago
      > The practice peaked around 1880, was formally outlawed by the last state (Alabama) in 1928, and persisted in various forms until it was abolished by President Franklin D. Roosevelt via Francis Biddle's "Circular 3591" of December 12, 1941. You use something that was ended (because people thought it was wrong!) nearly a century ago as supporting evidence for what exactly?
      - arentyouspecial 6y ago
        It wouldn’t be like paying prisoners literal pennies is a way of getting around the law that made convict leasing illegal.
        Alupis 6y ago
        Convict Leasing is different, and people felt strongly enough that it was bad that the laws were changed (nearly 100 years ago!). Now the prisoners can get paid some wages in return for labor, in a mostly voluntary labor system. Unlike the CCP, every inmate had a trial and was found guilty of some crime, and is now repaying their debt to society - as it were. What did the million Muslims in the article get convicted of in China? Being Muslims? What about the Uyghurs? So now they are slaves for the rest of their lives...
thescriptkiddie 6y ago
What? Paying someone (a pittance, mind) doesn't make forced labor not slavery. Read the 13th amendment.
- Alupis 6y ago
  Paying someone for labor kind of does make it not slavery - by the very definition of the word "slave" and "slavery". Or are you attempting to redefine the word "slave"?
  - MereInterest 6y ago
    Nope, that is not the distinguishing factor. Historically, money was used as an incentive for slave labor done especially well. That does not prevent it from being slavery. https://www.historyextra.com/period/slave-labour/ https://www.historyextra.com/period/slave-labour/
    - Alupis 6y ago
      You have an uphill battle to convince anyone being paid (any amount) for voluntary labor is akin to slave labor.
      - MereInterest 6y ago
        I take issue with describing it as "voluntary", when the alternative is a longer prison sentence. It is paid a pittance, and is effectively involuntary.
        Alupis 6y ago
        > when the alternative is a longer prison sentence That's simply untrue.
        MereInterest 6y ago
        "Even though, in a lot of cases, it is technically voluntary, there can be serious consequences for people who refuse to work or who advocate for better working conditions because a lot of prisoners use working as a way of having their sentences reduced." Source: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/884989263 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/884989263

by Alupis 6y ago

mike_h 6y ago

“The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps” Actually it’s not... did you read it? The central allegation is that a few thousand Xinjiang Muslims were offered employment possibly in exchange for political indoctrination. There’s a side allegation that prisoners are also being put to work in factories. There’s no allegation let alone evidence that this is without compensation. And the pennies offered in US prisons hardly count, and certainly don’t absolve the US justice system of the conflict of interest one can allege upon seeing how profitable it is for localities to throw people in jail.

Alupis 6y ago
> “The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps” > > Actually it’s not... did you read it? Yes, but apparently you did not. Here's the quote: > Xinjiang, in the far reaches of Western China bordering Afghanistan, Pakistan and other Muslim-majority countries, is facing a brutal crackdown by China’s government, which has placed more than a million Muslims in concentration camps or forced them to work in factories making everything from cotton to soft drinks to electronics. Trying to spin this off as some sort of voluntary job thing is extremely disingenuous. Almost as disingenuous as trying to spin paid prison labor in the US as slave labor.
- mike_h 6y ago
  That’s side-allegation, not what this article is about. And it’s a debatable one.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    Are we reading the same article? You stated: > The central allegation is that a few thousand Xinjiang Muslims were offered employment possibly in exchange for political indoctrination It's a million, and they were not offered employment. They were "transferred" and forced to work in factories, among other places.
    - zm262 6y ago
      Did you know how such a whole number of one million come to be? Apparently eight persons were asked about their heresay and then someone extend the result to the whole population of xinjiang..
  - wolverine876 6y ago
    Simply do a quick search for Xinjiang forced labor; you will find endless reports from the world's most credible sources. What is your basis for saying it's debatable? You argue every point, but what do you think should be done?
- darig 6y ago
  You're doing a fair bit of disingenuous spinning yourself there, chief.
mcguire 6y ago
"...Xinjiang Muslims were offered employment possibly in exchange for political indoctrination." "Offered employment in exchange for political indoctrination"? What exactly does that mean?

arentyouspecial 6y ago

Oh yeah, these companies are totally doing this for the public good and not just simply exploiting cheap labor. And considering how hard it is for an ex con to get a job, I doubt this has any major impact on recidivism.

Alupis 6y ago
That is a debate worth having - but calling cheaply paid prison labor "Slave Labor", or equivocating it to Chinese Forced Labor Camps is disingenuous and dishonest. They are flatly not the same, even if you believe it's debatably exploitive.
- arentyouspecial 6y ago
  Considering the rise of convict leasing programs across the south after the passing of the 13th amendment, I’d say there was very little difference. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_leasing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_leasing
  - Alupis 6y ago
    > The practice peaked around 1880, was formally outlawed by the last state (Alabama) in 1928, and persisted in various forms until it was abolished by President Franklin D. Roosevelt via Francis Biddle's "Circular 3591" of December 12, 1941. You use something that was ended (because people thought it was wrong!) nearly a century ago as supporting evidence for what exactly?
    - arentyouspecial 6y ago
      It wouldn’t be like paying prisoners literal pennies is a way of getting around the law that made convict leasing illegal.
      - Alupis 6y ago
        Convict Leasing is different, and people felt strongly enough that it was bad that the laws were changed (nearly 100 years ago!). Now the prisoners can get paid some wages in return for labor, in a mostly voluntary labor system. Unlike the CCP, every inmate had a trial and was found guilty of some crime, and is now repaying their debt to society - as it were. What did the million Muslims in the article get convicted of in China? Being Muslims? What about the Uyghurs? So now they are slaves for the rest of their lives...

thescriptkiddie 6y ago

What? Paying someone (a pittance, mind) doesn't make forced labor not slavery. Read the 13th amendment.

Alupis 6y ago
Paying someone for labor kind of does make it not slavery - by the very definition of the word "slave" and "slavery". Or are you attempting to redefine the word "slave"?
- MereInterest 6y ago
  Nope, that is not the distinguishing factor. Historically, money was used as an incentive for slave labor done especially well. That does not prevent it from being slavery. https://www.historyextra.com/period/slave-labour/ https://www.historyextra.com/period/slave-labour/
  - Alupis 6y ago
    You have an uphill battle to convince anyone being paid (any amount) for voluntary labor is akin to slave labor.
    - MereInterest 6y ago
      I take issue with describing it as "voluntary", when the alternative is a longer prison sentence. It is paid a pittance, and is effectively involuntary.
      - Alupis 6y ago
        > when the alternative is a longer prison sentence That's simply untrue.
        MereInterest 6y ago
        "Even though, in a lot of cases, it is technically voluntary, there can be serious consequences for people who refuse to work or who advocate for better working conditions because a lot of prisoners use working as a way of having their sentences reduced." Source: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/884989263 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/884989263