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That fits the US foot as well... - Native peoples destruction (robbed of heritage) - Spying on allies (breaks international agreements) - Lobbyists and presi

That fits the US foot as well... - Native peoples destruction (robbed of heritage) - Spying on allies (breaks international agreements) - Lobbyists and presidential pardons (massive corruption)

esarbe 6y ago
Yeah, well... I think the U.S. has some massive problems, but that's on another page and although I'd love to talk about these problems, let's stick with China for now. That a big enough pig.
- onethought 6y ago
  Yes, my house is on fire, and that's a big issue that should be addressed, but check out the big fire across the road. Let's focus on that one. (As someone who does not live in the US, it's hard to take the consistent negativity on China and the wilful ignorance on US domestic issues seriously, without just seeing it as propaganda...)
  - esarbe 6y ago
    Since I don't live in the U.S. either, I don't see why we should include the U.S. in this discussion. I'll happily comment about the prison-industrial-complex or legalized corruption or about the dangers of militarized police... if it is the topic at hand. The issue at hand is how China and Apple are profiting from slave labor, how much this is by design or by neglect and what to do about it. Let's keep the discussion limited to that.
    - onethought 6y ago
      But Apple is a US company... lots of US companies take advantage of (domestic) prison labour. How is the US not part of this discussion???
      - esarbe 6y ago
        This is fun! Apple is a U.S. Company Lots of U.S. companies take advantage of (domestic) prison labour. Domestic prison labour is responsible for mental health problems. Mental health problems are treated by psychiatrists. How are psychiatrists not part of this discussion???
        onethought 6y ago
        Sure if you want to derail it. But the Actual post is about an American company taking advantage of essentially Chinese prison labour. You think drawing a parallel to American companies taking advantage of American prison labour is unrelated to this discussion preferring to focus on the race of the 'prison labour' rather than the nature of the labour. What ever helps you sleep at night ;)
        esarbe 6y ago
        It was actually my conception that you were trying to derail the conversation. I'm terribly sorry if that wasn't the case. See my response to ksk below with regards to the topic of American prison labor. In short; it's inexcusable.
michaericalribo 6y ago
Two wrongs don’t make a right—hold every last one of them accountable, don’t excuse human rights abuses by anyone just because someone else has also committed abuses.
- onethought 6y ago
  I didn't mean it as whataboutism. I meant it as we should look at it as a global issue. Very easy to throw stones at the <latest developing economy>.
  - esarbe 6y ago
    I think that there's an issue in how industrial nations abuse the lack of protection for workers in developing nations and how this usually results in profit extraction and massive human rights violations. It would be nice to be able to force companies to take responsibility for crimes happening in their supply chain. I think this is the only way to prevent willful blindness. Otherwise the profit motive of the whole will always override the morality of the individual. We should also improve whistleblower protections so that instead of just relying on hearsay and vague accusations we can actually have solid proofs of wrongdoing. Unfortunately, especially in tyrannical dictatorships like China this is very unlikely, given that even a 'democracy' like the US is struggling with those. That said; I don't that China as a whole is a developing nation anymore. There are big chunks of the country that might still be 'developing', but as a whole China is very much an industrial superpower.
    - onethought 6y ago
      China Per person GDP: $9,770.85 USD US Per Person GDP: $62,794.59 USD China isn't a developing nation? So they should just be happy with 1/6 of the wealth US Residents get and stop now? What Crime is happening in their supply chain? Prison Labour is not illegal in the US or China. US constitution specifically allows it... How do we force Apple to take responsibility for this? There is solid proof of Labour camps, Prison Camps, Reeducation Camps, and persecution of the Uighurs, even the Chinese "tyrannical dictatorship" don't dispute it. It is fairly common knowledge among Chinese citizens as well. What will probably surprise you, is it has much wider support from the Chinese people than you'd expect. Now this could be that the context of "why" they are persecuted is not well known outside of china. It could also be that Chinese citizens are not comfortable objecting to it from fear of speaking out against their government. But it's not as clear cut of "wrongdoing" that this article nor this discussion makes out.

That fits the US foot as well... - Native peoples destruction (robbed of heritage) - Spying on allies (breaks international agreements) - Lobbyists and presidential pardons (massive corruption)

esarbe 6y ago

Yeah, well... I think the U.S. has some massive problems, but that's on another page and although I'd love to talk about these problems, let's stick with China for now. That a big enough pig.

onethought 6y ago
Yes, my house is on fire, and that's a big issue that should be addressed, but check out the big fire across the road. Let's focus on that one. (As someone who does not live in the US, it's hard to take the consistent negativity on China and the wilful ignorance on US domestic issues seriously, without just seeing it as propaganda...)
- esarbe 6y ago
  Since I don't live in the U.S. either, I don't see why we should include the U.S. in this discussion. I'll happily comment about the prison-industrial-complex or legalized corruption or about the dangers of militarized police... if it is the topic at hand. The issue at hand is how China and Apple are profiting from slave labor, how much this is by design or by neglect and what to do about it. Let's keep the discussion limited to that.
  - onethought 6y ago
    But Apple is a US company... lots of US companies take advantage of (domestic) prison labour. How is the US not part of this discussion???
    - esarbe 6y ago
      This is fun! Apple is a U.S. Company Lots of U.S. companies take advantage of (domestic) prison labour. Domestic prison labour is responsible for mental health problems. Mental health problems are treated by psychiatrists. How are psychiatrists not part of this discussion???
      - onethought 6y ago
        Sure if you want to derail it. But the Actual post is about an American company taking advantage of essentially Chinese prison labour. You think drawing a parallel to American companies taking advantage of American prison labour is unrelated to this discussion preferring to focus on the race of the 'prison labour' rather than the nature of the labour. What ever helps you sleep at night ;)
        esarbe 6y ago
        It was actually my conception that you were trying to derail the conversation. I'm terribly sorry if that wasn't the case. See my response to ksk below with regards to the topic of American prison labor. In short; it's inexcusable.

michaericalribo 6y ago

Two wrongs don’t make a right—hold every last one of them accountable, don’t excuse human rights abuses by anyone just because someone else has also committed abuses.

onethought 6y ago
I didn't mean it as whataboutism. I meant it as we should look at it as a global issue. Very easy to throw stones at the <latest developing economy>.
- esarbe 6y ago
  I think that there's an issue in how industrial nations abuse the lack of protection for workers in developing nations and how this usually results in profit extraction and massive human rights violations. It would be nice to be able to force companies to take responsibility for crimes happening in their supply chain. I think this is the only way to prevent willful blindness. Otherwise the profit motive of the whole will always override the morality of the individual. We should also improve whistleblower protections so that instead of just relying on hearsay and vague accusations we can actually have solid proofs of wrongdoing. Unfortunately, especially in tyrannical dictatorships like China this is very unlikely, given that even a 'democracy' like the US is struggling with those. That said; I don't that China as a whole is a developing nation anymore. There are big chunks of the country that might still be 'developing', but as a whole China is very much an industrial superpower.
  - onethought 6y ago
    China Per person GDP: $9,770.85 USD US Per Person GDP: $62,794.59 USD China isn't a developing nation? So they should just be happy with 1/6 of the wealth US Residents get and stop now? What Crime is happening in their supply chain? Prison Labour is not illegal in the US or China. US constitution specifically allows it... How do we force Apple to take responsibility for this? There is solid proof of Labour camps, Prison Camps, Reeducation Camps, and persecution of the Uighurs, even the Chinese "tyrannical dictatorship" don't dispute it. It is fairly common knowledge among Chinese citizens as well. What will probably surprise you, is it has much wider support from the Chinese people than you'd expect. Now this could be that the context of "why" they are persecuted is not well known outside of china. It could also be that Chinese citizens are not comfortable objecting to it from fear of speaking out against their government. But it's not as clear cut of "wrongdoing" that this article nor this discussion makes out.