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It also spreads wealth. China lifted more people out of poverty than any nation in history, because of globalisation. Are you saying poverty is less important

It also spreads wealth. China lifted more people out of poverty than any nation in history, because of globalisation. Are you saying poverty is less important than workers rights? Economies develop. This is part of it. You’ve just had a “protectionist” President, US is worse off by almost every measure... as a counter example to your “protectionism is needed”

heavyset_go 6y ago
Just so that we're on the same page, you're claiming that virtual slave prisoners are being lifted out of poverty through forced labor, correct?
- anoraca 6y ago
  That's a straw man. They're saying that hundreds of millions of Chinese people (and others around the world) have risen out of poverty because of globalism. You're only giving credit for the negative impacts of globalism, and in kind of a duplicitous manner.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    If the virtual slaves aren't being made wealthy from their forced labor, then who is and why should we support them?
  - arzt 6y ago
    I am not sure I understand this argument. The article states the "laborers" in question are given a choice as follows: submit to unpaid forced labor else go to a CCP reeducation camp. Nowhere is it stated those subjected to this choice have the opportunity to take advantage of rising living standards.
- onethought 6y ago
  I agree “forced work” or slavery should be stopped. But go and visit these factories in China... the people are their voluntarily... because their alternative is worse than those conditions. Like I said economies develop, China should improve its workers rights laws, and slowly it has and will. We should avoid and remove slavery. Agree. But using developing countries as an example of why developed countries should be more protectionist at exactly the point in time where the US tried that and lost out on almost every front is insane and disconnected from reality
  - duskcloudxu 6y ago
    Mostly agree but highly doubt if China would change the worker rights laws. Actually they do not need change since they already got a good one (including 40 hour work week and overtime pay), but it's rarely enforced by local governments.
    - onethought 6y ago
      As the saying in China goes: "Government Policy, Peoples' Anti-Policy". If the government don't police the laws, then they aren't really laws. Working conditions in a lot of Chinese companies are terrible in comparison to US/EU counterparts. Any evidence you need is just look at how much a Chinese company will change things if they hire a "westerner" (just for that westerner mind you)... It's ridiculous, China can and should do better.
      - duskcloudxu 6y ago
        True, but really if they hire a foreigner, that must be a different position that natives are not capable of. If you are a native and asking something even legal according the law (like double payment for working in weekend), your boss could fire you and there're plenty of people want that job. Also suing that company for wrongful termination takes much time and effort, many blue collar workers even do not know how to do it. With all being said, the working condition is getting better comparing that decades ago, but it's not because of government, it's only because the economy are growing and it takes more money to hire people.
gogopuppygogo 6y ago
Real wages actually went up for Americans for the first time in 40 years during the last four years but yeah worse off...
- onethought 6y ago
  Citation, with inflation adjustments. Please provide. Why is the US passing stimulus packages if it’s going so well? (To further my point was that growth a hang over from the globalist President? Or a result of the protectionist one? Did it continue throughout the 4 years? I already know the answer, but just pointing out the flaw in your point for you so you don’t need to find it)
spoonjim 6y ago
I don’t vote for a president to achieve global fairness. I vote for one who will make my life the best. If that’s not great for Chinese peasants that’s not the US President’s problem. China should develop its economy, but the US should not have allowed its corporations to have given China such a huge leg up in doing so.
- onethought 6y ago
  I’m not convinced that voting for overall fairness (global, national, state, community) is opposed to making your life the best. Those Chinese peasants will become the US problem (see the rise of China in the last 50 years). Those Chinese corporations are what made “your life the best” with your cheap cars, electronics. Your point sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it.
jack_h 6y ago
> You’ve just had a “protectionist” President, US is worse off by almost every measure... Could we get some citations to back this up? It seems too soon to even evaluate all of the effects of the (soon to be) previous administrations policies. But as a discussion point, Trump moved to end the postal subsidies China enjoyed which made it cheaper for us to have something shipped from there than to buy locally. How does this hurt the US?
- onethought 6y ago
  That’s a single policy. Perhaps that’s a good one? Imagine a world where China and the U.S. were on better terms, start of the health crisis China helped provide huge amounts Of PPE required. Drs and epidemiologists from China with experience could have helped drs in the US. Instead they were coming off the back of a trade war over soy beans and hiding information from each other. Globalisation has effects that expand beyond the economy. As for citations: the US has just passed the second, largest stimulus package in its history beating or the first from a couple of months back. Are we’re ignoring this gorilla so much that people need citations?
  - dillondoyle 6y ago
    I don't buy that. it's not reality. To me it's two fold: - The US would not have a relationship say similar to Britain/US because of the fundamental differences and problems with CCP's behavior - Vis a vis the CCP's habitual covering up of anything embarrassing and Xi's / CCPs singular focus on maintaining and growing their own power. see COVID, SARs and the many examples from business to free speech & 'press.' It's circularly not possible. CCPs behavior must fundamentally change, (or scarily the US becomes like CCP) The hiding was squarely on CCP. Maybe you could argue if COVID popped up in US first it would have been the same. But if the tables were turned I don't believe there would be any attempts to hide facts and not offer support beyond Trump's own incompetence and pathological personality disorder wishing it would 'magically go away' so he could get elected again. -- And to the parent parent there are plenty of facts both ways but it's impossible to separate effects of policy from the HUGE negative pain caused by Trump's abdication of responsibility. Trump has undeniably left us in a horrible place, far greater than any gains from policy.
ksk 6y ago
>You’ve just had a “protectionist” President, US is worse off by almost every measure... as a counter example to your “protectionism is needed” That is not a counter-example to anything AFAICT. We didn't have a 'protectionist' President. We had an incompetent President, who faked to be a protectionist. A real data point would be this: https://imgur.com/a/q3GUEzc https://imgur.com/a/q3GUEzc The US had a decent economy when we had high import duties.

heavyset_go 6y ago

Just so that we're on the same page, you're claiming that virtual slave prisoners are being lifted out of poverty through forced labor, correct?

anoraca 6y ago
That's a straw man. They're saying that hundreds of millions of Chinese people (and others around the world) have risen out of poverty because of globalism. You're only giving credit for the negative impacts of globalism, and in kind of a duplicitous manner.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  If the virtual slaves aren't being made wealthy from their forced labor, then who is and why should we support them?
- arzt 6y ago
  I am not sure I understand this argument. The article states the "laborers" in question are given a choice as follows: submit to unpaid forced labor else go to a CCP reeducation camp. Nowhere is it stated those subjected to this choice have the opportunity to take advantage of rising living standards.
onethought 6y ago
I agree “forced work” or slavery should be stopped. But go and visit these factories in China... the people are their voluntarily... because their alternative is worse than those conditions. Like I said economies develop, China should improve its workers rights laws, and slowly it has and will. We should avoid and remove slavery. Agree. But using developing countries as an example of why developed countries should be more protectionist at exactly the point in time where the US tried that and lost out on almost every front is insane and disconnected from reality
- duskcloudxu 6y ago
  Mostly agree but highly doubt if China would change the worker rights laws. Actually they do not need change since they already got a good one (including 40 hour work week and overtime pay), but it's rarely enforced by local governments.
  - onethought 6y ago
    As the saying in China goes: "Government Policy, Peoples' Anti-Policy". If the government don't police the laws, then they aren't really laws. Working conditions in a lot of Chinese companies are terrible in comparison to US/EU counterparts. Any evidence you need is just look at how much a Chinese company will change things if they hire a "westerner" (just for that westerner mind you)... It's ridiculous, China can and should do better.
    - duskcloudxu 6y ago
      True, but really if they hire a foreigner, that must be a different position that natives are not capable of. If you are a native and asking something even legal according the law (like double payment for working in weekend), your boss could fire you and there're plenty of people want that job. Also suing that company for wrongful termination takes much time and effort, many blue collar workers even do not know how to do it. With all being said, the working condition is getting better comparing that decades ago, but it's not because of government, it's only because the economy are growing and it takes more money to hire people.

gogopuppygogo 6y ago

Real wages actually went up for Americans for the first time in 40 years during the last four years but yeah worse off...

onethought 6y ago
Citation, with inflation adjustments. Please provide. Why is the US passing stimulus packages if it’s going so well? (To further my point was that growth a hang over from the globalist President? Or a result of the protectionist one? Did it continue throughout the 4 years? I already know the answer, but just pointing out the flaw in your point for you so you don’t need to find it)

spoonjim 6y ago

I don’t vote for a president to achieve global fairness. I vote for one who will make my life the best. If that’s not great for Chinese peasants that’s not the US President’s problem. China should develop its economy, but the US should not have allowed its corporations to have given China such a huge leg up in doing so.

onethought 6y ago
I’m not convinced that voting for overall fairness (global, national, state, community) is opposed to making your life the best. Those Chinese peasants will become the US problem (see the rise of China in the last 50 years). Those Chinese corporations are what made “your life the best” with your cheap cars, electronics. Your point sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it.

jack_h 6y ago

> You’ve just had a “protectionist” President, US is worse off by almost every measure... Could we get some citations to back this up? It seems too soon to even evaluate all of the effects of the (soon to be) previous administrations policies. But as a discussion point, Trump moved to end the postal subsidies China enjoyed which made it cheaper for us to have something shipped from there than to buy locally. How does this hurt the US?

onethought 6y ago
That’s a single policy. Perhaps that’s a good one? Imagine a world where China and the U.S. were on better terms, start of the health crisis China helped provide huge amounts Of PPE required. Drs and epidemiologists from China with experience could have helped drs in the US. Instead they were coming off the back of a trade war over soy beans and hiding information from each other. Globalisation has effects that expand beyond the economy. As for citations: the US has just passed the second, largest stimulus package in its history beating or the first from a couple of months back. Are we’re ignoring this gorilla so much that people need citations?
- dillondoyle 6y ago
  I don't buy that. it's not reality. To me it's two fold: - The US would not have a relationship say similar to Britain/US because of the fundamental differences and problems with CCP's behavior - Vis a vis the CCP's habitual covering up of anything embarrassing and Xi's / CCPs singular focus on maintaining and growing their own power. see COVID, SARs and the many examples from business to free speech & 'press.' It's circularly not possible. CCPs behavior must fundamentally change, (or scarily the US becomes like CCP) The hiding was squarely on CCP. Maybe you could argue if COVID popped up in US first it would have been the same. But if the tables were turned I don't believe there would be any attempts to hide facts and not offer support beyond Trump's own incompetence and pathological personality disorder wishing it would 'magically go away' so he could get elected again. -- And to the parent parent there are plenty of facts both ways but it's impossible to separate effects of policy from the HUGE negative pain caused by Trump's abdication of responsibility. Trump has undeniably left us in a horrible place, far greater than any gains from policy.

ksk 6y ago

>You’ve just had a “protectionist” President, US is worse off by almost every measure... as a counter example to your “protectionism is needed” That is not a counter-example to anything AFAICT. We didn't have a 'protectionist' President. We had an incompetent President, who faked to be a protectionist. A real data point would be this: https://imgur.com/a/q3GUEzc https://imgur.com/a/q3GUEzc The US had a decent economy when we had high import duties.