4 ms·

> if zero tolerance policies punish the aggressor and victim equally I never said that. Please don't make up strawmans. > And by your reasoning, then bullying

> if zero tolerance policies punish the aggressor and victim equally I never said that. Please don't make up strawmans. > And by your reasoning, then bullying shouldn't exist today because the school policies should prevent it, yet it's more rampant than ever. I never said that. > I was bullied once. Eventually I fought back and gave the kid a bloody nose. Guess what - he was nicer to me and to other kids too. Prior to that he had no empathy. That experience changed him. I know others with similar experiences too. Funny how I only hear the "stood up to bullies succesfully" story and never the other ones. See my other comment.

giantg2 6y ago
"I never said that. Please don't make up strawmans." That's not a strawman, that's the definition of zero tolerance policies in schools - both parties in a fight get punished the same. "And by your reasoning, then bullying shouldn't exist today because the school policies should prevent it, yet it's more rampant than ever." 'I never said that.' What you did say is that victims can't solve bullying and that school policies should. What we clearly see is that bullying is a growing issue under zero tolerance policies because the victim is given disincentive to defend themselves - it becomes a vicious cycle that protects bullies. It also is at odds with my personal experiences. If the zero tolerance policy isn't the school policy you were speaking about, then what is? You imply that school policies should prevent bullying, but we clearly don't see that. "Funny how I only hear the 'stood up to bullies succesfully' story and never the other ones. See my other comment." You do hear of the other stories - kids committing suicide or shooting up a school because they are trapped in a failed zero tolerance system that leaves them with seemingly all-or-nothing options. You also witness kids just "taking it" if you are observant enough. So far you seem to be just trolling - offering neither arguments nor facts that support zero tolerance systems or refute the facts that I, and many other on here, have presented against those systems.
- eeZah7Ux 6y ago
  Once again you kept assuming that I support the zero tolerance policy, to then even accusing me of trolling. > If the zero tolerance policy isn't the school policy you were speaking about, then what is? There is extensive literature on the topic in pedagogy and it often applies to adults surprisingly well. - hire psychologists instead of cops - fire any teacher that sees bullying and ignores it on purpose - require teachers to talk about the problem. Silence and "boys will be boys" bullshit is a huge enabler. - teach teachers the basics of psychology to spot patterns in students at risk - encourage students to talk to psychologists - require teachers to walk around the school and don't leave areas where teachers never go - teach students de-escalation. Yes it's as skill and it can be learned like other skills
  - giantg2 6y ago
    You were clearly against the people defending themselves in your original reply (saying it won't fix anything) and want school policies to fix things. The policies you are listing are already in use! Why hasn't the issue been solved?
    - eeZah7Ux 6y ago
      > You were clearly against the people defending themselves in your original reply No, don't twist my words: I'm against the culture of pushing the burden of defending oneself onto the victim. Because it's literally victim blaming. I'm also against punishing the victim in case they defend themselves, because it's also victim blaming. This is nothing new. Most legal systems treat adults crime victims with a similar principle.
      - giantg2 6y ago
        "No, don't twist my words: I'm against the culture of pushing the burden of defending oneself onto the victim. Because it's literally victim blaming." Then why did you respond the way you did? I never blamed victims. My post was that zero tolerance policies prevent a victim from defending themself. You said that victims cannot stop the bullying and that the school needs policies to do so, but without the police.

giantg2 6y ago

"I never said that. Please don't make up strawmans." That's not a strawman, that's the definition of zero tolerance policies in schools - both parties in a fight get punished the same. "And by your reasoning, then bullying shouldn't exist today because the school policies should prevent it, yet it's more rampant than ever." 'I never said that.' What you did say is that victims can't solve bullying and that school policies should. What we clearly see is that bullying is a growing issue under zero tolerance policies because the victim is given disincentive to defend themselves - it becomes a vicious cycle that protects bullies. It also is at odds with my personal experiences. If the zero tolerance policy isn't the school policy you were speaking about, then what is? You imply that school policies should prevent bullying, but we clearly don't see that. "Funny how I only hear the 'stood up to bullies succesfully' story and never the other ones. See my other comment." You do hear of the other stories - kids committing suicide or shooting up a school because they are trapped in a failed zero tolerance system that leaves them with seemingly all-or-nothing options. You also witness kids just "taking it" if you are observant enough. So far you seem to be just trolling - offering neither arguments nor facts that support zero tolerance systems or refute the facts that I, and many other on here, have presented against those systems.

eeZah7Ux 6y ago
Once again you kept assuming that I support the zero tolerance policy, to then even accusing me of trolling. > If the zero tolerance policy isn't the school policy you were speaking about, then what is? There is extensive literature on the topic in pedagogy and it often applies to adults surprisingly well. - hire psychologists instead of cops - fire any teacher that sees bullying and ignores it on purpose - require teachers to talk about the problem. Silence and "boys will be boys" bullshit is a huge enabler. - teach teachers the basics of psychology to spot patterns in students at risk - encourage students to talk to psychologists - require teachers to walk around the school and don't leave areas where teachers never go - teach students de-escalation. Yes it's as skill and it can be learned like other skills
- giantg2 6y ago
  You were clearly against the people defending themselves in your original reply (saying it won't fix anything) and want school policies to fix things. The policies you are listing are already in use! Why hasn't the issue been solved?
  - eeZah7Ux 6y ago
    > You were clearly against the people defending themselves in your original reply No, don't twist my words: I'm against the culture of pushing the burden of defending oneself onto the victim. Because it's literally victim blaming. I'm also against punishing the victim in case they defend themselves, because it's also victim blaming. This is nothing new. Most legal systems treat adults crime victims with a similar principle.
    - giantg2 6y ago
      "No, don't twist my words: I'm against the culture of pushing the burden of defending oneself onto the victim. Because it's literally victim blaming." Then why did you respond the way you did? I never blamed victims. My post was that zero tolerance policies prevent a victim from defending themself. You said that victims cannot stop the bullying and that the school needs policies to do so, but without the police.