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You and the previous poster seem to ignore that the punishment is just (to the extent that the criminal justice system is capable of justice). It's not like th

You and the previous poster seem to ignore that the punishment is just (to the extent that the criminal justice system is capable of justice). It's not like they're forced to work; and if they take the option, they're still under punishment doled by the justice system. So it's not immoral forced labor as long as neither the work or the jail cell constitutes "cruel and unusual punishment".

hutzlibu 6y ago
So ... it is slavery, but just slavery? Well, I would say, the lines get blurry. And when you have private prisons, where the owners have a incentive to exploit prison labour, while also keeping their costs low - you end up in something, too close to slavery for my taste.
Pfhreak 6y ago
> the punishment is just I think it's reasonable to hold the belief that the punishment, especially in today's prison system, is not just.
- TimTheTinker 6y ago
  Whether or not it’s just, it’s a separate discussion.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    You asserted it was just. I just don't think that's axiomatic. I'm not here to argue whether it's true, just to say that you shouldn't take it as necessarily factual.
nobody9999 6y ago
>You and the previous poster seem to ignore that the punishment is just (to the extent that the criminal justice system is capable of justice). By your logic, the Uighurs are experiencing "just" punishment under the laws of the People's Republic of China. Since the Uighurs have committed "crimes" (as defined by the government under which they live) against the state, they are subject to whatever punishment is prescribed by the law. This is, of course, ridiculous on its face. And is just as ridiculous anywhere else. There are valid reasons to separate some folks from the rest of society (think John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, etc.), as they've shown themselves to be unable/unwilling to respect the rights of others within that society. Incarceration as a tool of punishment, while widely used, often poses more risk of harming society than any benefit from "punishing" offenders. It's a complex issue, and simplifying it to "Law and order! Lock 'em up!" is reductive and often detrimental to the societies it's supposed to improve.
- TimTheTinker 6y ago
  No, I'm talking about incarceration in the USA. There's a huge difference between that and what's happening in China.
  - nobody9999 6y ago
    >No, I'm talking about incarceration in the USA. There's a huge difference between that and what's happening in China. I was aware of that when responding. In fact, when I said: "There are valid reasons to separate some folks from the rest of society (think John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, etc.), as they've shown themselves to be unable/unwilling to respect the rights of others within that society. Incarceration as a tool of punishment, while widely used, often poses more risk of harming society than any benefit from "punishing" offenders. It's a complex issue, and simplifying it to "Law and order! Lock 'em up!" is reductive and often detrimental to the societies it's supposed to improve." I was specifically referring to my home, the USA.
matthewdgreen 6y ago
The question is not whether it’s immoral. The question is whether it’s “voluntary” when the alternative is punishment. If pretending that this kind of work is voluntary is the only way you can make it morally palatable to you, then maybe you have a deeper issue that you’re blinding yourself to. It’s better to be realistic about what’s happening, and then decide whether you can live with the reality.

hutzlibu 6y ago

So ... it is slavery, but just slavery? Well, I would say, the lines get blurry. And when you have private prisons, where the owners have a incentive to exploit prison labour, while also keeping their costs low - you end up in something, too close to slavery for my taste.

Pfhreak 6y ago

> the punishment is just I think it's reasonable to hold the belief that the punishment, especially in today's prison system, is not just.

TimTheTinker 6y ago
Whether or not it’s just, it’s a separate discussion.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  You asserted it was just. I just don't think that's axiomatic. I'm not here to argue whether it's true, just to say that you shouldn't take it as necessarily factual.

nobody9999 6y ago

>You and the previous poster seem to ignore that the punishment is just (to the extent that the criminal justice system is capable of justice). By your logic, the Uighurs are experiencing "just" punishment under the laws of the People's Republic of China. Since the Uighurs have committed "crimes" (as defined by the government under which they live) against the state, they are subject to whatever punishment is prescribed by the law. This is, of course, ridiculous on its face. And is just as ridiculous anywhere else. There are valid reasons to separate some folks from the rest of society (think John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, etc.), as they've shown themselves to be unable/unwilling to respect the rights of others within that society. Incarceration as a tool of punishment, while widely used, often poses more risk of harming society than any benefit from "punishing" offenders. It's a complex issue, and simplifying it to "Law and order! Lock 'em up!" is reductive and often detrimental to the societies it's supposed to improve.

TimTheTinker 6y ago
No, I'm talking about incarceration in the USA. There's a huge difference between that and what's happening in China.
- nobody9999 6y ago
  >No, I'm talking about incarceration in the USA. There's a huge difference between that and what's happening in China. I was aware of that when responding. In fact, when I said: "There are valid reasons to separate some folks from the rest of society (think John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, etc.), as they've shown themselves to be unable/unwilling to respect the rights of others within that society. Incarceration as a tool of punishment, while widely used, often poses more risk of harming society than any benefit from "punishing" offenders. It's a complex issue, and simplifying it to "Law and order! Lock 'em up!" is reductive and often detrimental to the societies it's supposed to improve." I was specifically referring to my home, the USA.

matthewdgreen 6y ago

The question is not whether it’s immoral. The question is whether it’s “voluntary” when the alternative is punishment. If pretending that this kind of work is voluntary is the only way you can make it morally palatable to you, then maybe you have a deeper issue that you’re blinding yourself to. It’s better to be realistic about what’s happening, and then decide whether you can live with the reality.