4 ms·

> I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from this year would have prompted sancti

> I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from this year would have prompted sanctions and denunciations... I don't think so. Nothing happened with Tibet, or after the Tiananmen Square event AFAIK. 20 years ago, the people that signed all the trade deals with countries such as China claimed it would lead to improving democracy and human rights there, obviously, it didn't, People's Republic of China has never been more autocratic. Ethical and moral concerns should have been addressed when China joined the WTO in 2001, irregardless China's political structure. China got a very good deal, western industrials as well, but at what human cost? I wasn't interested in economy at the time, but I still remember clearly debates on talkshows between human rights advocates and people pushing trade deals and their arguments, it was a time where you could still publicly talk about the situation in Tibet. Today? Nobody would even dare.

MarkSweep 6y ago
You mean the “People’s Republic of China”, right? The “Republic of China” is more commonly known as “Taiwan”.
- est 6y ago
  Taiwanese companies were mostly responsible for those forced labor supplly chains in E. and S.E. Asia.
LatteLazy 6y ago
Tiananmen was at least met with lasting arms embargo, both from the EU and US... I think the expectation for many (myself included) was that as living standards rose, the Chinese people would demand democratic reform (rule of law, justice for all, some say in decisions and leadership). China (or rather the ccp) has successfully avoided that so far. Now its flexing that power and people like me, who expected natural change, are forced to re-evaluate. mea culpa
quasse 6y ago
> the republic of China has never been more autocratic This is a more nuanced issue than it might seem in some ways though. I have some first hand experience since many of my coworkers are native Chinese living in different parts of China. Trade has enabled the growth of a previously non-existent middle class in China and they have started to assert political power in ways not immediately apparent to Westerners. One example is the "Beijing smog" that everyone knows about. The Chinese middle class are becoming unwilling to tolerate the total environmental devastation that was the norm two decades ago. They have put a lot of pressure on the CCP to keep the air cleaner and as a result many dirty industries like iron casting have had a huge number of restrictions put on them in the last 5 years. I would consider this a direct result of the political willpower of the Chinese people. In my experience though, the reason things like the treatment of the Uyghurs or Tibetans have not changed is simply because the average Chinese person does not care or wish to rock the boat. Before you finger wag about that, consider the American treatment of South American migrants that has come into the spotlight in the last 4 years. I would say that the reason it has not changed has the same root cause. The average American does not care, or silently approves and thus there is not enough pressure on the ruling party to produce change.
- throwaway3699 6y ago
  > Before you finger wag about that, consider the American treatment of South American migrants that has come into the spotlight in the last 4 years. South American migrants are treat fine, just not those who break in illegally (we can agree to differ if that's fair or not). I'm sorry but this is just not comparable to a possible genocide of the Uyghurs.
- swordsmith 6y ago
  > American treatment of South American migrants Migrants, or illegal immigrants?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
dirtyid 6y ago
> obviously, it didn't Of course it did, in Kishore Mahbuani's words: >The greatest explosion of personal freedoms that the Chinese people have experienced in the past 4,000 years has taken place in the last 40 years There's some slide back in some categories from Hu Jintao era, but overall things are progressing. The west fixates on the 1% of extra bad when it's been mostly great. >what human cost? 800m uplifted from poverty, a few million minorities gets shafted, to be crass: the cost was/is negligible all things considered. Post 90s China bad, but mostly good. Overwhelming good compared to others with similar starting positions and much better development conditions, i.e. China had some of the most onerous WTO accession protocols and sanctions that held back her development.
- insulanus 6y ago
  It is an excellent point that the well managed Chinese economy and PR apparatus has helped the average Chinese citizen. You would be singing a different tune if you were to come under Chinese rule.
  - dirtyid 6y ago
    I worked in China under Chinese rule, there's frustrations, but it was mostly fine. Know / related to many Chinese nationals, spectrum from FLG practitioners to purged officials. From rich coastal provinces to poor inland ones. China's a stressful place, everyone bitches about how things are, the loudest from their multi million dollar tier1 condos. But almost no one wants to go back to Mao days, except the FLG practitioner because they missed ideological purity of the old party. People can sing whatever, and if you believe the recent Harvard surveys, they sing mostly good things. The fact that they're singing in the first place is unparalleled freedom compared to Mao times where private speech got you fucked, i.e. what the Uyghurs are going through now, which is to say 99% of the country has moved past that. It's an unambiguous improvement. First ever civil code just passed this year as well. It's only been 30 years, about how long it took Taiwan/Korea to liberalize, except things take longer when you have 1.4B people and antagonism from global superpower. Taiwan/Korean dictatorship got unambiguous and sustained US support. Under Xi, it's 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Realistically it's is 5 steps forward and 1 step back, but west likes to paint that 1 step as a chasm.
mads 6y ago
it was also a time, where the hero in that movie could carry a Taiwanese flag on his back. or a time where you would see Winnie the Pooh movies being made. little by little...

MarkSweep 6y ago

You mean the “People’s Republic of China”, right? The “Republic of China” is more commonly known as “Taiwan”.

est 6y ago
Taiwanese companies were mostly responsible for those forced labor supplly chains in E. and S.E. Asia.

LatteLazy 6y ago

Tiananmen was at least met with lasting arms embargo, both from the EU and US... I think the expectation for many (myself included) was that as living standards rose, the Chinese people would demand democratic reform (rule of law, justice for all, some say in decisions and leadership). China (or rather the ccp) has successfully avoided that so far. Now its flexing that power and people like me, who expected natural change, are forced to re-evaluate. mea culpa

quasse 6y ago

> the republic of China has never been more autocratic This is a more nuanced issue than it might seem in some ways though. I have some first hand experience since many of my coworkers are native Chinese living in different parts of China. Trade has enabled the growth of a previously non-existent middle class in China and they have started to assert political power in ways not immediately apparent to Westerners. One example is the "Beijing smog" that everyone knows about. The Chinese middle class are becoming unwilling to tolerate the total environmental devastation that was the norm two decades ago. They have put a lot of pressure on the CCP to keep the air cleaner and as a result many dirty industries like iron casting have had a huge number of restrictions put on them in the last 5 years. I would consider this a direct result of the political willpower of the Chinese people. In my experience though, the reason things like the treatment of the Uyghurs or Tibetans have not changed is simply because the average Chinese person does not care or wish to rock the boat. Before you finger wag about that, consider the American treatment of South American migrants that has come into the spotlight in the last 4 years. I would say that the reason it has not changed has the same root cause. The average American does not care, or silently approves and thus there is not enough pressure on the ruling party to produce change.

throwaway3699 6y ago
> Before you finger wag about that, consider the American treatment of South American migrants that has come into the spotlight in the last 4 years. South American migrants are treat fine, just not those who break in illegally (we can agree to differ if that's fair or not). I'm sorry but this is just not comparable to a possible genocide of the Uyghurs.
swordsmith 6y ago
> American treatment of South American migrants Migrants, or illegal immigrants?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago

dirtyid 6y ago

> obviously, it didn't Of course it did, in Kishore Mahbuani's words: >The greatest explosion of personal freedoms that the Chinese people have experienced in the past 4,000 years has taken place in the last 40 years There's some slide back in some categories from Hu Jintao era, but overall things are progressing. The west fixates on the 1% of extra bad when it's been mostly great. >what human cost? 800m uplifted from poverty, a few million minorities gets shafted, to be crass: the cost was/is negligible all things considered. Post 90s China bad, but mostly good. Overwhelming good compared to others with similar starting positions and much better development conditions, i.e. China had some of the most onerous WTO accession protocols and sanctions that held back her development.

insulanus 6y ago
It is an excellent point that the well managed Chinese economy and PR apparatus has helped the average Chinese citizen. You would be singing a different tune if you were to come under Chinese rule.
- dirtyid 6y ago
  I worked in China under Chinese rule, there's frustrations, but it was mostly fine. Know / related to many Chinese nationals, spectrum from FLG practitioners to purged officials. From rich coastal provinces to poor inland ones. China's a stressful place, everyone bitches about how things are, the loudest from their multi million dollar tier1 condos. But almost no one wants to go back to Mao days, except the FLG practitioner because they missed ideological purity of the old party. People can sing whatever, and if you believe the recent Harvard surveys, they sing mostly good things. The fact that they're singing in the first place is unparalleled freedom compared to Mao times where private speech got you fucked, i.e. what the Uyghurs are going through now, which is to say 99% of the country has moved past that. It's an unambiguous improvement. First ever civil code just passed this year as well. It's only been 30 years, about how long it took Taiwan/Korea to liberalize, except things take longer when you have 1.4B people and antagonism from global superpower. Taiwan/Korean dictatorship got unambiguous and sustained US support. Under Xi, it's 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Realistically it's is 5 steps forward and 1 step back, but west likes to paint that 1 step as a chasm.

mads 6y ago

it was also a time, where the hero in that movie could carry a Taiwanese flag on his back. or a time where you would see Winnie the Pooh movies being made. little by little...