4 ms·

Just to make sure no one is confused by this either, there is no "volunteer[ing]" in prison.

tiahura 6y ago
I'm guessing you've never been incarcerated? There's all sorts of volunteering: such as fixing the TV or coffee maker, teaching other inmates to read, helping another inmate file a frivolous appeal, and so on. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/whats-it-really-like-to-work-in-a-prison-goat-milk-farm-we-asked-inmates https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/wh... [What's It Really Like To Work In A Prison Goat Milk Farm? We Asked Inmates] But what do the workers themselves think? I find Jeremiah Pate in the milking barn, attaching milking machines to the goats' udders. "This job, how do you feel about it?" I ask him. "A bad thing? Good thing?" "It's a great thing," Pate tells me. "It beats the alternative. Rather than sitting in your tiny little cell, you get to come out here." Every man I meet echoes that thought. They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good. You're making the case that it is involuntary. "Do this or we shall do to you something worse against your will" is textbook coercion.
  - moron4hire 6y ago
    But it's the thing that would already be done to them if the work program was not available. We put criminals in prison because of the crimes they commit, not because of the jobs they refuse once they are there.
    - klyrs 6y ago
      Is it so hard to imagine that folks risking their lives to fight fires should be paid for that heroic service, be they incarcerated or not?
      - moron4hire 6y ago
        I did not intend to comment on the nature of the work, only on the idea that refusing some form of work resulted in some form of punishment specific to the refusal. The punishment is the base state (and US prison systems are definitely punishment-oreinted, not reform-oriented). It's just not good accounting to call "going back to your cell" a punishment for not agreeing to do a particular job.m
- matthewdgreen 6y ago
  The previous poster made a very obvious point that work is not voluntary when the alternative is punishment, which your post very helpfully illustrates as “sitting in [a] tiny little cell.” This doesn’t seem like a point that should require so much explanation for thinking people.
  - TimTheTinker 6y ago
    You and the previous poster seem to ignore that the punishment is just (to the extent that the criminal justice system is capable of justice). It's not like they're forced to work; and if they take the option, they're still under punishment doled by the justice system. So it's not immoral forced labor as long as neither the work or the jail cell constitutes "cruel and unusual punishment".
    - hutzlibu 6y ago
      So ... it is slavery, but just slavery? Well, I would say, the lines get blurry. And when you have private prisons, where the owners have a incentive to exploit prison labour, while also keeping their costs low - you end up in something, too close to slavery for my taste.
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      > the punishment is just I think it's reasonable to hold the belief that the punishment, especially in today's prison system, is not just.
      - TimTheTinker 6y ago
        Whether or not it’s just, it’s a separate discussion.
        Pfhreak 6y ago
        You asserted it was just. I just don't think that's axiomatic. I'm not here to argue whether it's true, just to say that you shouldn't take it as necessarily factual.
- Nkuna 6y ago
  > there is no "volunteer[ing]" in prison. >> "It's a great thing," Pate tells me. "It beats the alternative. Rather than sitting in your tiny little cell, you get to come out here." >> They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good. You're making the point of OP. When the only other option is "sitting in your tiny little cell", there's not much choice in it. It's less volunteering, and more escaping a psychologically untenable situation. Given other options, I doubt many inmates would be willing to 'volunteer' or work for peanuts.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    Yeah, it's like the rest of the US justice system "you can plead guilty and with the time we kept you in jail waiting for trial you can go home tomorrow, or you can go to trial at some unspecified point in the future and risk going to prison for 20 years - which one do you want?" There is no free choice in that question. Just an illusion of one.
  - stickfigure 6y ago
    What are those other options? Take away the volunteer opportunity? Stop punishing people? Just FYI, most of the non-prisoner firefighters in California are also volunteers. In my district (north Solano county), 90% of firefighters are volunteers. We don't get paid.
gamblor956 6y ago
Just to make sure no one is confused by this, jobs in prison are a privilege you have to earn through good behavior. Firefighting jobs are the most coveted because you get to leave prison grounds, and as of 2020, can now be employed as a firefighter upon release (in CA).

I'm guessing you've never been incarcerated? There's all sorts of volunteering: such as fixing the TV or coffee maker, teaching other inmates to read, helping another inmate file a frivolous appeal, and so on. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/whats-it-really-like-to-work-in-a-prison-goat-milk-farm-we-asked-inmates https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/wh... [What's It Really Like To Work In A Prison Goat Milk Farm? We Asked Inmates] But what do the workers themselves think? I find Jeremiah Pate in the milking barn, attaching milking machines to the goats' udders. "This job, how do you feel about it?" I ask him. "A bad thing? Good thing?" "It's a great thing," Pate tells me. "It beats the alternative. Rather than sitting in your tiny little cell, you get to come out here." Every man I meet echoes that thought. They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good. You're making the case that it is involuntary. "Do this or we shall do to you something worse against your will" is textbook coercion.
- moron4hire 6y ago
  But it's the thing that would already be done to them if the work program was not available. We put criminals in prison because of the crimes they commit, not because of the jobs they refuse once they are there.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    Is it so hard to imagine that folks risking their lives to fight fires should be paid for that heroic service, be they incarcerated or not?
    - moron4hire 6y ago
      I did not intend to comment on the nature of the work, only on the idea that refusing some form of work resulted in some form of punishment specific to the refusal. The punishment is the base state (and US prison systems are definitely punishment-oreinted, not reform-oriented). It's just not good accounting to call "going back to your cell" a punishment for not agreeing to do a particular job.m
matthewdgreen 6y ago
The previous poster made a very obvious point that work is not voluntary when the alternative is punishment, which your post very helpfully illustrates as “sitting in [a] tiny little cell.” This doesn’t seem like a point that should require so much explanation for thinking people.
- TimTheTinker 6y ago
  You and the previous poster seem to ignore that the punishment is just (to the extent that the criminal justice system is capable of justice). It's not like they're forced to work; and if they take the option, they're still under punishment doled by the justice system. So it's not immoral forced labor as long as neither the work or the jail cell constitutes "cruel and unusual punishment".
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    So ... it is slavery, but just slavery? Well, I would say, the lines get blurry. And when you have private prisons, where the owners have a incentive to exploit prison labour, while also keeping their costs low - you end up in something, too close to slavery for my taste.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    > the punishment is just I think it's reasonable to hold the belief that the punishment, especially in today's prison system, is not just.
    - TimTheTinker 6y ago
      Whether or not it’s just, it’s a separate discussion.
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        You asserted it was just. I just don't think that's axiomatic. I'm not here to argue whether it's true, just to say that you shouldn't take it as necessarily factual.
Nkuna 6y ago
> there is no "volunteer[ing]" in prison. >> "It's a great thing," Pate tells me. "It beats the alternative. Rather than sitting in your tiny little cell, you get to come out here." >> They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good. You're making the point of OP. When the only other option is "sitting in your tiny little cell", there's not much choice in it. It's less volunteering, and more escaping a psychologically untenable situation. Given other options, I doubt many inmates would be willing to 'volunteer' or work for peanuts.
- gambiting 6y ago
  Yeah, it's like the rest of the US justice system "you can plead guilty and with the time we kept you in jail waiting for trial you can go home tomorrow, or you can go to trial at some unspecified point in the future and risk going to prison for 20 years - which one do you want?" There is no free choice in that question. Just an illusion of one.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  What are those other options? Take away the volunteer opportunity? Stop punishing people? Just FYI, most of the non-prisoner firefighters in California are also volunteers. In my district (north Solano county), 90% of firefighters are volunteers. We don't get paid.

gamblor956 6y ago

Just to make sure no one is confused by this, jobs in prison are a privilege you have to earn through good behavior. Firefighting jobs are the most coveted because you get to leave prison grounds, and as of 2020, can now be employed as a firefighter upon release (in CA).