8 ms·

> Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. The Constitution refers to it directly as slavery. The 13th says "except as punishment for a crime." F

by sli 6y ago

> Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. The Constitution refers to it directly as slavery. The 13th says "except as punishment for a crime." Folks may want to mince words about it because prisoners are technically paid (pennies per hour), if they are even getting paid in the first place. It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for little to no pay. Plus, prisoners are on the hook financially for a lot of their sentence, so that money is basically spent before they even get it.

stickfigure 6y ago
> It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for little to no pay. Just to make sure nobody is confused by this, because the subject comes up a lot - prisoner firefighers are volunteers.
- fishtacos 6y ago
  Just to make sure no one is confused by this either, there is no "volunteer[ing]" in prison.
  - tiahura 6y ago
    I'm guessing you've never been incarcerated? There's all sorts of volunteering: such as fixing the TV or coffee maker, teaching other inmates to read, helping another inmate file a frivolous appeal, and so on. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/whats-it-really-like-to-work-in-a-prison-goat-milk-farm-we-asked-inmates https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/wh... [What's It Really Like To Work In A Prison Goat Milk Farm? We Asked Inmates] But what do the workers themselves think? I find Jeremiah Pate in the milking barn, attaching milking machines to the goats' udders. "This job, how do you feel about it?" I ask him. "A bad thing? Good thing?" "It's a great thing," Pate tells me. "It beats the alternative. Rather than sitting in your tiny little cell, you get to come out here." Every man I meet echoes that thought. They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good.
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      > They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good. You're making the case that it is involuntary. "Do this or we shall do to you something worse against your will" is textbook coercion.
      - moron4hire 6y ago
        But it's the thing that would already be done to them if the work program was not available. We put criminals in prison because of the crimes they commit, not because of the jobs they refuse once they are there.
        klyrs 6y ago
        Is it so hard to imagine that folks risking their lives to fight fires should be paid for that heroic service, be they incarcerated or not?
        moron4hire 6y ago
        I did not intend to comment on the nature of the work, only on the idea that refusing some form of work resulted in some form of punishment specific to the refusal. The punishment is the base state (and US prison systems are definitely punishment-oreinted, not reform-oriented). It's just not good accounting to call "going back to your cell" a punishment for not agreeing to do a particular job.m
    - matthewdgreen 6y ago
      The previous poster made a very obvious point that work is not voluntary when the alternative is punishment, which your post very helpfully illustrates as “sitting in [a] tiny little cell.” This doesn’t seem like a point that should require so much explanation for thinking people.
      - TimTheTinker 6y ago
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    Just to make sure no one is confused by this, jobs in prison are a privilege you have to earn through good behavior. Firefighting jobs are the most coveted because you get to leave prison grounds, and as of 2020, can now be employed as a firefighter upon release (in CA).
jvreagan 6y ago
Prisoner firefighters in California are volunteers that opt in and receive significantly reduced sentences for their service and often end up working for Calfire upon release.
- virtue3 6y ago
  they -just- made a ruling that would overturn this, but this was not the case until -very-very-very- recently. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/20/californias-volunteer-inmate-firefighters-denied-jobs-after-release-column/987677002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/20/california...
- rurp 6y ago
  According to this article from a couple years ago the convict firefighters are frequently excluded from doing those jobs after being released. https://www.axios.com/how-inmates-who-fight-wildfires-are-later-denied-firefighting-jobs-1513306736-c63805dd-c2fb-4c04-a81e-1f9a7058ef34.html https://www.axios.com/how-inmates-who-fight-wildfires-are-la...

by sli 6y ago

stickfigure 6y ago

> It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for little to no pay. Just to make sure nobody is confused by this, because the subject comes up a lot - prisoner firefighers are volunteers.

fishtacos 6y ago
Just to make sure no one is confused by this either, there is no "volunteer[ing]" in prison.
- tiahura 6y ago
  I'm guessing you've never been incarcerated? There's all sorts of volunteering: such as fixing the TV or coffee maker, teaching other inmates to read, helping another inmate file a frivolous appeal, and so on. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/whats-it-really-like-to-work-in-a-prison-goat-milk-farm-we-asked-inmates https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/wh... [What's It Really Like To Work In A Prison Goat Milk Farm? We Asked Inmates] But what do the workers themselves think? I find Jeremiah Pate in the milking barn, attaching milking machines to the goats' udders. "This job, how do you feel about it?" I ask him. "A bad thing? Good thing?" "It's a great thing," Pate tells me. "It beats the alternative. Rather than sitting in your tiny little cell, you get to come out here." Every man I meet echoes that thought. They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    > They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good. You're making the case that it is involuntary. "Do this or we shall do to you something worse against your will" is textbook coercion.
    - moron4hire 6y ago
      But it's the thing that would already be done to them if the work program was not available. We put criminals in prison because of the crimes they commit, not because of the jobs they refuse once they are there.
      - klyrs 6y ago
        Is it so hard to imagine that folks risking their lives to fight fires should be paid for that heroic service, be they incarcerated or not?
        moron4hire 6y ago
        I did not intend to comment on the nature of the work, only on the idea that refusing some form of work resulted in some form of punishment specific to the refusal. The punishment is the base state (and US prison systems are definitely punishment-oreinted, not reform-oriented). It's just not good accounting to call "going back to your cell" a punishment for not agreeing to do a particular job.m
  - matthewdgreen 6y ago
    The previous poster made a very obvious point that work is not voluntary when the alternative is punishment, which your post very helpfully illustrates as “sitting in [a] tiny little cell.” This doesn’t seem like a point that should require so much explanation for thinking people.
    - TimTheTinker 6y ago
- gamblor956 6y ago
  Just to make sure no one is confused by this, jobs in prison are a privilege you have to earn through good behavior. Firefighting jobs are the most coveted because you get to leave prison grounds, and as of 2020, can now be employed as a firefighter upon release (in CA).

jvreagan 6y ago

Prisoner firefighters in California are volunteers that opt in and receive significantly reduced sentences for their service and often end up working for Calfire upon release.

virtue3 6y ago
they -just- made a ruling that would overturn this, but this was not the case until -very-very-very- recently. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/20/californias-volunteer-inmate-firefighters-denied-jobs-after-release-column/987677002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/20/california...
rurp 6y ago
According to this article from a couple years ago the convict firefighters are frequently excluded from doing those jobs after being released. https://www.axios.com/how-inmates-who-fight-wildfires-are-later-denied-firefighting-jobs-1513306736-c63805dd-c2fb-4c04-a81e-1f9a7058ef34.html https://www.axios.com/how-inmates-who-fight-wildfires-are-la...