5 ms·

Apple fans don’t seem to care, as long as they are getting their magic, nothing else matters...

by mgh2 6y ago

lemonspat 6y ago
As an iOS user, I care. Tim Cook needs to investigate and respond publicly to this immediately
- onlyrealcuzzo 6y ago
  Immediately? It's been going on for years. Why now?
  - Gracana 6y ago
    Immediately, because there is no better alternative.
hombre_fatal 6y ago
Eh, nobody, including yourself, maybe except the Jainists, are willing to do without the creature comforts of their lifestyle, not just Apple users. Look at all the things you own and use, some of them built in the same Foxconn factory no doubt. We can look the squalor of factory-farmed animals right in the eye while biting into our ham sandwich and say "damn, someone should really do something about that." Or, perhaps more commonly, "I'm entitled to this, actually." So why would we budge over a little forced labor on the other side of the world? Or pollution? Or anything else? We care about things right up to the point where we have to lift a finger. Though, aside, for this reason I think legislation is one of the only solutions short of waiting for a cultural awakening that probably won't ever come.
- mgh2 6y ago
  Emphasis on the word "fans". Analogy: I hate Google's business model, but I still have to use their products for lack of better alternatives. The difference is that I won't go around evangelizing (i.e. marketing) their products as a consumer, pumping up demand if I knew the negative costs associated with it. On the corporate side is Apple's hypocrisy PR- i.e. don't drink their koolaid.
  - nobody9999 6y ago
    >Analogy: I hate Google's business model, but I still have to use their products for lack of better alternatives. I'm curious, which Google product must you use that has no reasonable analog from a different vendor? I'm not being snarky here just a little confused. I suppose Android could fall into that definition, although LineageOS[0]+MicroG[1] do provide a reasonable alternative. My question isn't rhetorical. I'm genuinely not familiar with any Google product without a reasonable alternative. [0] https://lineageos.org https://lineageos.org [1] https://microg.org https://microg.org Edit: Fixed nonsensical sentence.
    - mgh2 6y ago
      The obvious one, the search engine... due to its accuracy and speed. No wonder their monopoly lawsuit.
      - nobody9999 6y ago
        >The obvious one, the search engine... due to its accuracy and speed. No wonder their monopoly lawsuit. As a general rule, I don't use the search engine. And not just because of Google's market power. It's also because the quality of search results have dropped enormously. At this point, other search engines are at least as good, IMHO.
        mgh2 6y ago
        Can you give me an alternative? Duckduckgo does not cut it.
- esarbe 6y ago
  Don't you need some kind of a cultural awakening to force politicians to introduce legislation?
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago
  >Though, aside, for this reason I think legislation is one of the only solutions short of waiting for a cultural awakening that probably won't ever come. I don't think it'll ever come because we've allowed ourselves to create an atmosphere where there's entities doing their utmost to ensure it never happens via the tolerance of behaviour economics and psychology being used in marketing, the tolerance of big corporate lobbyists, the corruption of science via corporate backed "studies" whose results align with the initial desires, etc. The only consolation being that our unmitigated greed will likely destroy us long before we have the chance to infest the stars with it, and that life will go on without us.
onlyrealcuzzo 6y ago
Apple is Foxconn's biggest customer. But why not call out PlayStation and Nintendo and Amazon and??? The fact is - Apple fans aren't unique. Not many people care about this issue, unfortunately.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- centimeter 6y ago
  Aren't PlayStations made in Kisarazu, Japan? At least some of them are.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mgh2 6y ago
  That is why education on the issue is important. This is an old documentary and a bit different demographic, but it is still pertinent. If people didn't care back then, I doubt they will this time though... https://www.tvo.org/video/documentaries/complicit https://www.tvo.org/video/documentaries/complicit
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
I'm not an Apple fan, probably more of an Apple hater, but why is Apple the bad guy for seeking cheaper labor? Why is it the consumers problem that China allows it's citizens to be treated like shit? Why is this ethical responsibility somehow always offloaded to the consumer?
- natecham 6y ago
  Because as long as it’s legal and the consumer is willing to buy at the rate they have been, Apple/etc. has very little incentive to change
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- crispyambulance 6y ago
  > Why is this ethical responsibility somehow always offloaded to the consumer? Because NO ONE else seems to be up to the task. I think folks here are getting lost in the weeds about precise definitions which don't really matter that much and what they think are laws that can be applied across national boundaries (generally, that's not feasible). There has been an effort to ban "conflict minerals" from modern supply chains. It's partially successful (in that you effectively get "a sticker" that you can show-off if your supply chain doesn't use children as miners). It would be nice if, AT LEAST, a similar half-measure could be done for "forced labor" (or whatever you want to call what they're doing to the Uighurs).
- esarbe 6y ago
  > Why is this ethical responsibility somehow always offloaded to the consumer? Because without consumer, there would be no incentive for either China and Apple to behave amorally. China is a totalitarian dictatorship. As long as it's citizens don't rebel, they have no incentive to change their behavior. Apple is a publicly traded company. They need good publicity. So, as a humanist, I say it's up to the consumers to force Apple to stop contributing to human rights abuses.
centimeter 6y ago
If I have the opportunity to buy something not made in China, I will take it. Unfortunately, it's essentially impossible to buy any consumer electronics not made there. The set of things you can buy these days that isn't made in China is essentially restricted to luxury goods and safety-critical equipment (cars, guns, scuba gear, etc.); despite what they tend to say out loud, companies know that it's prohibitively expensive to get safety-critical reliability out of Chinese manufacturing. But if it's just your camera or power drill or whatever, they know you're not going to sue them when it breaks. Apple actually does a really good job on QC for Chinese manufacturing, but then you have all these accusations of forced labor to contend with.
slivanes 6y ago
Apple wants forced labor in China and they are lobbying for a bill aimed at allowing forced labor in China: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-uighur/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u...
jodrellblank 6y ago
This isn’t even concern trolling virtue signalling, this is you using human slavery to score internet tech superiority points by ... making up some fantasy strawman to sneer at. And then try to claim you are different for using Google because you hate yourself at the same time.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Apple fans don’t seem to care, as long as they are getting their magic, nothing else matters...

by mgh2 6y ago

Apple fans don’t seem to care, as long as they are getting their magic, nothing else matters...

lemonspat 6y ago

As an iOS user, I care. Tim Cook needs to investigate and respond publicly to this immediately

onlyrealcuzzo 6y ago
Immediately? It's been going on for years. Why now?
- Gracana 6y ago
  Immediately, because there is no better alternative.

hombre_fatal 6y ago

Eh, nobody, including yourself, maybe except the Jainists, are willing to do without the creature comforts of their lifestyle, not just Apple users. Look at all the things you own and use, some of them built in the same Foxconn factory no doubt. We can look the squalor of factory-farmed animals right in the eye while biting into our ham sandwich and say "damn, someone should really do something about that." Or, perhaps more commonly, "I'm entitled to this, actually." So why would we budge over a little forced labor on the other side of the world? Or pollution? Or anything else? We care about things right up to the point where we have to lift a finger. Though, aside, for this reason I think legislation is one of the only solutions short of waiting for a cultural awakening that probably won't ever come.

mgh2 6y ago
Emphasis on the word "fans". Analogy: I hate Google's business model, but I still have to use their products for lack of better alternatives. The difference is that I won't go around evangelizing (i.e. marketing) their products as a consumer, pumping up demand if I knew the negative costs associated with it. On the corporate side is Apple's hypocrisy PR- i.e. don't drink their koolaid.
- nobody9999 6y ago
  >Analogy: I hate Google's business model, but I still have to use their products for lack of better alternatives. I'm curious, which Google product must you use that has no reasonable analog from a different vendor? I'm not being snarky here just a little confused. I suppose Android could fall into that definition, although LineageOS[0]+MicroG[1] do provide a reasonable alternative. My question isn't rhetorical. I'm genuinely not familiar with any Google product without a reasonable alternative. [0] https://lineageos.org https://lineageos.org [1] https://microg.org https://microg.org Edit: Fixed nonsensical sentence.
  - mgh2 6y ago
    The obvious one, the search engine... due to its accuracy and speed. No wonder their monopoly lawsuit.
    - nobody9999 6y ago
      >The obvious one, the search engine... due to its accuracy and speed. No wonder their monopoly lawsuit. As a general rule, I don't use the search engine. And not just because of Google's market power. It's also because the quality of search results have dropped enormously. At this point, other search engines are at least as good, IMHO.
      - mgh2 6y ago
        Can you give me an alternative? Duckduckgo does not cut it.
esarbe 6y ago
Don't you need some kind of a cultural awakening to force politicians to introduce legislation?
cmdshiftf4 6y ago
>Though, aside, for this reason I think legislation is one of the only solutions short of waiting for a cultural awakening that probably won't ever come. I don't think it'll ever come because we've allowed ourselves to create an atmosphere where there's entities doing their utmost to ensure it never happens via the tolerance of behaviour economics and psychology being used in marketing, the tolerance of big corporate lobbyists, the corruption of science via corporate backed "studies" whose results align with the initial desires, etc. The only consolation being that our unmitigated greed will likely destroy us long before we have the chance to infest the stars with it, and that life will go on without us.

onlyrealcuzzo 6y ago

Apple is Foxconn's biggest customer. But why not call out PlayStation and Nintendo and Amazon and??? The fact is - Apple fans aren't unique. Not many people care about this issue, unfortunately.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
centimeter 6y ago
Aren't PlayStations made in Kisarazu, Japan? At least some of them are.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mgh2 6y ago
That is why education on the issue is important. This is an old documentary and a bit different demographic, but it is still pertinent. If people didn't care back then, I doubt they will this time though... https://www.tvo.org/video/documentaries/complicit https://www.tvo.org/video/documentaries/complicit

2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago

I'm not an Apple fan, probably more of an Apple hater, but why is Apple the bad guy for seeking cheaper labor? Why is it the consumers problem that China allows it's citizens to be treated like shit? Why is this ethical responsibility somehow always offloaded to the consumer?

natecham 6y ago
Because as long as it’s legal and the consumer is willing to buy at the rate they have been, Apple/etc. has very little incentive to change
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
crispyambulance 6y ago
> Why is this ethical responsibility somehow always offloaded to the consumer? Because NO ONE else seems to be up to the task. I think folks here are getting lost in the weeds about precise definitions which don't really matter that much and what they think are laws that can be applied across national boundaries (generally, that's not feasible). There has been an effort to ban "conflict minerals" from modern supply chains. It's partially successful (in that you effectively get "a sticker" that you can show-off if your supply chain doesn't use children as miners). It would be nice if, AT LEAST, a similar half-measure could be done for "forced labor" (or whatever you want to call what they're doing to the Uighurs).
esarbe 6y ago
> Why is this ethical responsibility somehow always offloaded to the consumer? Because without consumer, there would be no incentive for either China and Apple to behave amorally. China is a totalitarian dictatorship. As long as it's citizens don't rebel, they have no incentive to change their behavior. Apple is a publicly traded company. They need good publicity. So, as a humanist, I say it's up to the consumers to force Apple to stop contributing to human rights abuses.

centimeter 6y ago

If I have the opportunity to buy something not made in China, I will take it. Unfortunately, it's essentially impossible to buy any consumer electronics not made there. The set of things you can buy these days that isn't made in China is essentially restricted to luxury goods and safety-critical equipment (cars, guns, scuba gear, etc.); despite what they tend to say out loud, companies know that it's prohibitively expensive to get safety-critical reliability out of Chinese manufacturing. But if it's just your camera or power drill or whatever, they know you're not going to sue them when it breaks. Apple actually does a really good job on QC for Chinese manufacturing, but then you have all these accusations of forced labor to contend with.

slivanes 6y ago

Apple wants forced labor in China and they are lobbying for a bill aimed at allowing forced labor in China: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-uighur/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u...

jodrellblank 6y ago

This isn’t even concern trolling virtue signalling, this is you using human slavery to score internet tech superiority points by ... making up some fantasy strawman to sneer at. And then try to claim you are different for using Google because you hate yourself at the same time.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]