6 ms·

Grubhub sets default tip to $0

36 points by mike_h 6y ago

blaisio 6y ago
Prop 22 is a tremendous success for Uber and other companies. The courts and legislature in CA went out on a limb to force Uber and others to do the right thing, and prop 22 erased all their work. If you don't live in California, you may not know - they added a $1.50 fee to every order, in addition to all the existing service fees and delivery fees, which often add up to 20-30% of the order. (Also by the way, uber and grubhub already artificially raise the prices of items on the menu and keep the difference, and restaurants can't do anything to stop it). They can blame it all on Prop 22 even though they spent millions to pass it. Now obviously people are paying all these fees, so it appears that drivers are being paid a lot, so no need to tip. But most drivers don't even qualify for the money! We are paying money on orders that probably won't even go to our own driver. Personally I've decided to stop using these food delivery apps. I can't stop using Uber, but I can pick up my own food. It is depressing that so many delivery drivers didn't understand what they were voting for and did nothing to stop this
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  Prop 22 was a reaction to how bad AB5 was really. I found the paternalism of AB5 to be a little bit problematic. It really assumed that the drivers are too stupid to do their own accounting and figure out if they are making money or not. Pretty sure most drivers wouldn't be driving for $9.21 if a job at the local ice cream parlor could get them almost double on the spot. Yet you still see folks driving 30 hrs per week for years.
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    Loot boxes work for convincing unskilled labor to work below minimum wage.
  - pgayed 6y ago
    “Hi. I find the opinion you're expressing here abhorrent. People can't take care of themselves, learn, grow or adapt. We need government to protect them from the wolves in our society. I will be downvoting you now. Thank you.”
  - roughly 6y ago
    This presumes there are alternate jobs available quickly and easily enough to cover immediate needs. Secondarily, it indeed assumes that the drivers have the skill to understand depreciation of the vehicle, cost of repairs, etc., or expected costs of healthcare over time, which, bluntly, I’d be surprised if most people on this forum could calculate correctly enough. Alternatively, it’s possible that drivers are knowingly mortgaging the car to cover short term needs - in other words, that the math doesn’t pen out and yet people are still engaging because they’re under duress. Finally, it assumes absent state intervention that there’s any kind of parity in negotiation between the drivers and the company, or any way for them to affect what is a transparently lopsided power dynamic.
  - zapita 6y ago
    If AB5 was bad, then a good reaction would be to lobby the state legislature to amend it. Prop 22 doesn’t just circumvent AB5: it makes it virtually impossible to improve it via the legislative route. Here is the specific language: After the effective date of this chapter, the Legislature may amend this chapter by a statute passed in each house of the Legislature by rollcall vote entered into the journal, seven-eighths of the membership concurring, provided that the statute is consistent with, and furthers the purpose of, this chapter. This means two things: 1) To make a change that is consistent with the purpose of prop 22 (that is to say, that proponents of prop 22 would agree to), an 7/8 congress majority is required. This is highly unusual, and not a coincidence: to achieve such a majority requires getting the California GOP on board. California Republicans are mostly irrelevant at the state level, but they have endorsed prop 22, and this is their reward: a permanent veto over any incremental changes to a crucial section of California labor law. 2) To make a change that is inconsistent with the purpose of prop 22 (for example to reverse it), a new ballot measure must be adopted. Although that is technically not impossible, in practice it may as well be. Uber and Lyft spent $80m on this ballot measure, and could easily double that if required. Their natural opponents, unions, could barely raise $5m the first time around. They simply don’t have pockets deep enough to compete. Whether you supported or opposed AB5, it should be common sense that California’s democratically elected congress should have authoroty over California law. Prop 22 establishes a new reality where that is no longer the case: for $80m dollars, you can essentially buy yourself a permanent exemption. That is incredibly dangerous.
    - aeternum 6y ago
      AB5 was terrible, and if prop 22 didn't pass, it was unlikely to be amended. Lawmakers should be creating laws in the public interest, it's ridiculous that a brand new law like AB5 lacked so much public support that it could be immediately overturned. It's a pretty clear demonstration of legislative incompetence. They knew it was a bad law but rushed it through anyway.
uberman 6y ago
Of course the default tip should be $0. Before anyone suggests that a tip is required in these instances, I'll preemptively remind you that Grubhub already takes AT LEAST 30% from the provider. A default tip by the consumer of 20% would suggest that their delivery service was worth MORE than the provider's food. Here is a restaurant showing GrubHub fees (not including tips) constituting more than 60% of of the take. https://www.eater.com/2020/5/1/21243966/giuseppe-badalamenti-chicago-pizza-boss-shares-grubhub-earning-statement-on-facebook https://www.eater.com/2020/5/1/21243966/giuseppe-badalamenti... If drivers need more wages they should get them from Grubhub's already overly generous cut of the pie. If someone appreciates a prompt delivery or other aspect of the provided service then by all means, provide a tip but that should be the carrot, not the status quo. If it is "expected" then Grubhub should just lump it onto their already outrageous fee structure. Lack of proper pay for service workers in America that has resulted in our out of control tipping culture has always made me a little sick.
- awillen 6y ago
  This is nice in theory and wildly out of touch with reality. Should Grubhub pay drivers more? Yes. Yes they should. But we live in a world where Grubhub does not pay enough to drivers. That means as a consumer of the service, you should be aware of that and tip. You're outright saying that we should punish workers because Grubhub is shitty. I encourage you to go do something about the system, but until then, advocating for hurting delivery workers because you don't like the system is a bad approach.
  - uberman 6y ago
    Tipping is ethically required in some instances such as when a lower wage is permitted and paid to in-house servers. That is fine, but tipping culture is out of control in the USA. When a tip becomes required it is no longer a tip and we should stop pretending it is. Grubhub has the ability to change this situation right now, over night. Simply add a new 20% delivery charge onto their fees.
    - gilrain 6y ago
benbristow 6y ago
As a Brit this is pretty standard. Some of our delivery apps (Like Just Eat, one of the biggest ones) don't even have the ability to tip but it's always opt-in if it is (Uber Eats have a tipping option). Personally hate it as I feel guilty for not tipping and Uber Eats guilt trips you into tipping using COVID as a catalyst. Of course I usually 'give in' and tip.
gerash 6y ago
We need legislation here where businesses cannot have all these hidden fees anymore. Right now the food deliveries like DoorDash take a cut from the restaurants, add a delivery fee, a service fee, a small order fee, a city fee (if the city caps their maximum commission), a tax and then try to guilt the customers into tipping the drivers 20%. This nonsense needs to stop. All prices should include all the fees so customers can comparison shop. Worst of all at some grocery stores I've come across POS devices that ask for a tip. It's annoying. These need to be outlawed. I'm all for drivers and restaurant workers making more money but mandatory "tip" and various hidden fees is not the way to go.

36 points by mike_h 6y ago

Prop 22 is a tremendous success for Uber and other companies. The courts and legislature in CA went out on a limb to force Uber and others to do the right thing, and prop 22 erased all their work. If you don't live in California, you may not know - they added a $1.50 fee to every order, in addition to all the existing service fees and delivery fees, which often add up to 20-30% of the order. (Also by the way, uber and grubhub already artificially raise the prices of items on the menu and keep the difference, and restaurants can't do anything to stop it). They can blame it all on Prop 22 even though they spent millions to pass it. Now obviously people are paying all these fees, so it appears that drivers are being paid a lot, so no need to tip. But most drivers don't even qualify for the money! We are paying money on orders that probably won't even go to our own driver. Personally I've decided to stop using these food delivery apps. I can't stop using Uber, but I can pick up my own food. It is depressing that so many delivery drivers didn't understand what they were voting for and did nothing to stop this

908B64B197 6y ago
Prop 22 was a reaction to how bad AB5 was really. I found the paternalism of AB5 to be a little bit problematic. It really assumed that the drivers are too stupid to do their own accounting and figure out if they are making money or not. Pretty sure most drivers wouldn't be driving for $9.21 if a job at the local ice cream parlor could get them almost double on the spot. Yet you still see folks driving 30 hrs per week for years.
- lern_too_spel 6y ago
  Loot boxes work for convincing unskilled labor to work below minimum wage.
- pgayed 6y ago
  “Hi. I find the opinion you're expressing here abhorrent. People can't take care of themselves, learn, grow or adapt. We need government to protect them from the wolves in our society. I will be downvoting you now. Thank you.”
- roughly 6y ago
  This presumes there are alternate jobs available quickly and easily enough to cover immediate needs. Secondarily, it indeed assumes that the drivers have the skill to understand depreciation of the vehicle, cost of repairs, etc., or expected costs of healthcare over time, which, bluntly, I’d be surprised if most people on this forum could calculate correctly enough. Alternatively, it’s possible that drivers are knowingly mortgaging the car to cover short term needs - in other words, that the math doesn’t pen out and yet people are still engaging because they’re under duress. Finally, it assumes absent state intervention that there’s any kind of parity in negotiation between the drivers and the company, or any way for them to affect what is a transparently lopsided power dynamic.
- zapita 6y ago
  If AB5 was bad, then a good reaction would be to lobby the state legislature to amend it. Prop 22 doesn’t just circumvent AB5: it makes it virtually impossible to improve it via the legislative route. Here is the specific language: After the effective date of this chapter, the Legislature may amend this chapter by a statute passed in each house of the Legislature by rollcall vote entered into the journal, seven-eighths of the membership concurring, provided that the statute is consistent with, and furthers the purpose of, this chapter. This means two things: 1) To make a change that is consistent with the purpose of prop 22 (that is to say, that proponents of prop 22 would agree to), an 7/8 congress majority is required. This is highly unusual, and not a coincidence: to achieve such a majority requires getting the California GOP on board. California Republicans are mostly irrelevant at the state level, but they have endorsed prop 22, and this is their reward: a permanent veto over any incremental changes to a crucial section of California labor law. 2) To make a change that is inconsistent with the purpose of prop 22 (for example to reverse it), a new ballot measure must be adopted. Although that is technically not impossible, in practice it may as well be. Uber and Lyft spent $80m on this ballot measure, and could easily double that if required. Their natural opponents, unions, could barely raise $5m the first time around. They simply don’t have pockets deep enough to compete. Whether you supported or opposed AB5, it should be common sense that California’s democratically elected congress should have authoroty over California law. Prop 22 establishes a new reality where that is no longer the case: for $80m dollars, you can essentially buy yourself a permanent exemption. That is incredibly dangerous.
  - aeternum 6y ago
    AB5 was terrible, and if prop 22 didn't pass, it was unlikely to be amended. Lawmakers should be creating laws in the public interest, it's ridiculous that a brand new law like AB5 lacked so much public support that it could be immediately overturned. It's a pretty clear demonstration of legislative incompetence. They knew it was a bad law but rushed it through anyway.

uberman 6y ago

Of course the default tip should be $0. Before anyone suggests that a tip is required in these instances, I'll preemptively remind you that Grubhub already takes AT LEAST 30% from the provider. A default tip by the consumer of 20% would suggest that their delivery service was worth MORE than the provider's food. Here is a restaurant showing GrubHub fees (not including tips) constituting more than 60% of of the take. https://www.eater.com/2020/5/1/21243966/giuseppe-badalamenti-chicago-pizza-boss-shares-grubhub-earning-statement-on-facebook https://www.eater.com/2020/5/1/21243966/giuseppe-badalamenti... If drivers need more wages they should get them from Grubhub's already overly generous cut of the pie. If someone appreciates a prompt delivery or other aspect of the provided service then by all means, provide a tip but that should be the carrot, not the status quo. If it is "expected" then Grubhub should just lump it onto their already outrageous fee structure. Lack of proper pay for service workers in America that has resulted in our out of control tipping culture has always made me a little sick.

awillen 6y ago
This is nice in theory and wildly out of touch with reality. Should Grubhub pay drivers more? Yes. Yes they should. But we live in a world where Grubhub does not pay enough to drivers. That means as a consumer of the service, you should be aware of that and tip. You're outright saying that we should punish workers because Grubhub is shitty. I encourage you to go do something about the system, but until then, advocating for hurting delivery workers because you don't like the system is a bad approach.
- uberman 6y ago
  Tipping is ethically required in some instances such as when a lower wage is permitted and paid to in-house servers. That is fine, but tipping culture is out of control in the USA. When a tip becomes required it is no longer a tip and we should stop pretending it is. Grubhub has the ability to change this situation right now, over night. Simply add a new 20% delivery charge onto their fees.
  - gilrain 6y ago

benbristow 6y ago

As a Brit this is pretty standard. Some of our delivery apps (Like Just Eat, one of the biggest ones) don't even have the ability to tip but it's always opt-in if it is (Uber Eats have a tipping option). Personally hate it as I feel guilty for not tipping and Uber Eats guilt trips you into tipping using COVID as a catalyst. Of course I usually 'give in' and tip.

gerash 6y ago

We need legislation here where businesses cannot have all these hidden fees anymore. Right now the food deliveries like DoorDash take a cut from the restaurants, add a delivery fee, a service fee, a small order fee, a city fee (if the city caps their maximum commission), a tax and then try to guilt the customers into tipping the drivers 20%. This nonsense needs to stop. All prices should include all the fees so customers can comparison shop. Worst of all at some grocery stores I've come across POS devices that ask for a tip. It's annoying. These need to be outlawed. I'm all for drivers and restaurant workers making more money but mandatory "tip" and various hidden fees is not the way to go.