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That comparison could just as easily be said to belittle what actual forced labor is. I don’t think it’s helpful to compare which atrocity is worse. There are

That comparison could just as easily be said to belittle what actual forced labor is. I don’t think it’s helpful to compare which atrocity is worse. There are many societies that have had lots of norms or laws protecting slaves from various forms of harm. That’s of course not to say slavery was acceptable in those societies on any level, but many slaves lived more comfortable lives than those who eventually died of malnutrition at Auchwitz-II.

strogonoff 6y ago
Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. Equating forced labour as a whole with slavery, which is frequently used to refer to chattel slavery that existed in the US (HN audience is to large degree US-based) before 1865, may seem inconsiderate to those whose ancestors had to endure the latter. What is reported to be happening to Muslims now in Xinjang, with reeducation camps and all, is not the same as treating a human as another piece of personal property. It is both not as bad, and yet at the same time somehow even worse, as this time a whole culture is being systematically eliminated.
- sli 6y ago
  > Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. The Constitution refers to it directly as slavery. The 13th says "except as punishment for a crime." Folks may want to mince words about it because prisoners are technically paid (pennies per hour), if they are even getting paid in the first place. It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for little to no pay. Plus, prisoners are on the hook financially for a lot of their sentence, so that money is basically spent before they even get it.
  - stickfigure 6y ago
    > It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for little to no pay. Just to make sure nobody is confused by this, because the subject comes up a lot - prisoner firefighers are volunteers.
    - fishtacos 6y ago
      Just to make sure no one is confused by this either, there is no "volunteer[ing]" in prison.
      - tiahura 6y ago
        I'm guessing you've never been incarcerated? There's all sorts of volunteering: such as fixing the TV or coffee maker, teaching other inmates to read, helping another inmate file a frivolous appeal, and so on. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/whats-it-really-like-to-work-in-a-prison-goat-milk-farm-we-asked-inmates https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/wh... [What's It Really Like To Work In A Prison Goat Milk Farm? We Asked Inmates] But what do the workers themselves think? I find Jeremiah Pate in the milking barn, attaching milking machines to the goats' udders. "This job, how do you feel about it?" I ask him. "A bad thing? Good thing?" "It's a great thing," Pate tells me. "It beats the alternative. Rather than sitting in your tiny little cell, you get to come out here." Every man I meet echoes that thought. They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good.
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        > They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good. You're making the case that it is involuntary. "Do this or we shall do to you something worse against your will" is textbook coercion.
        moron4hire 6y ago
        But it's the thing that would already be done to them if the work program was not available. We put criminals in prison because of the crimes they commit, not because of the jobs they refuse once they are there.
        6y ago
  - jvreagan 6y ago
    Prisoner firefighters in California are volunteers that opt in and receive significantly reduced sentences for their service and often end up working for Calfire upon release.
    - virtue3 6y ago
      they -just- made a ruling that would overturn this, but this was not the case until -very-very-very- recently. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/20/californias-volunteer-inmate-firefighters-denied-jobs-after-release-column/987677002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/20/california...
    - rurp 6y ago
      According to this article from a couple years ago the convict firefighters are frequently excluded from doing those jobs after being released. https://www.axios.com/how-inmates-who-fight-wildfires-are-later-denied-firefighting-jobs-1513306736-c63805dd-c2fb-4c04-a81e-1f9a7058ef34.html https://www.axios.com/how-inmates-who-fight-wildfires-are-la...
- aaomidi 6y ago
  Yes. The US has slave labor too. This distinction seems like us trying to protect our own interests in regards to keeping slavery legal in the United States too.
- cforrester 6y ago
  I think you're thinking of "slavery" as a term applying exclusively to chattel slavery, but it's far from exclusive to that form. Bonded labour and forced labour are commonly recognized forms of slavery, as people are obligated to serve another under threat of violence.
- woodruffw 6y ago
  You're conflating slavery and chattel slavery. As others have mentioned, the 13th Amendment explicitly carves out forced labor as a legal form of slavery under a course of punishment. Referring to it as slavery does nothing to diminish the atrocities of chattel slavery.
- rhn_mk1 6y ago
  > Equating forced labour as a whole with slavery, which is frequently used to refer to what existed in the US (HN audience is to large degree US-based) before 1865, may seem inconsiderate to those whose ancestors had to endure the latter. I don't see this as a reason to cut off the discussion. Trying to distance forced labor from slavery may seem incosiderate to those who had to endure the former. There's no escaping the inconsideration considerations, so I prefer to discuss the topic at hand without that baggage.
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    Also, at least in the US, - slavery is allowed explicitly for prison labor, - there was a concerted effort after the end of slavery to put former slaves and their descendants into things that were almost like slavery, including mass incarceration

strogonoff 6y ago

Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. Equating forced labour as a whole with slavery, which is frequently used to refer to chattel slavery that existed in the US (HN audience is to large degree US-based) before 1865, may seem inconsiderate to those whose ancestors had to endure the latter. What is reported to be happening to Muslims now in Xinjang, with reeducation camps and all, is not the same as treating a human as another piece of personal property. It is both not as bad, and yet at the same time somehow even worse, as this time a whole culture is being systematically eliminated.

sli 6y ago
> Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. The Constitution refers to it directly as slavery. The 13th says "except as punishment for a crime." Folks may want to mince words about it because prisoners are technically paid (pennies per hour), if they are even getting paid in the first place. It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for little to no pay. Plus, prisoners are on the hook financially for a lot of their sentence, so that money is basically spent before they even get it.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  > It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for little to no pay. Just to make sure nobody is confused by this, because the subject comes up a lot - prisoner firefighers are volunteers.
  - fishtacos 6y ago
    Just to make sure no one is confused by this either, there is no "volunteer[ing]" in prison.
    - tiahura 6y ago
      I'm guessing you've never been incarcerated? There's all sorts of volunteering: such as fixing the TV or coffee maker, teaching other inmates to read, helping another inmate file a frivolous appeal, and so on. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/whats-it-really-like-to-work-in-a-prison-goat-milk-farm-we-asked-inmates https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/07/20/538062911/wh... [What's It Really Like To Work In A Prison Goat Milk Farm? We Asked Inmates] But what do the workers themselves think? I find Jeremiah Pate in the milking barn, attaching milking machines to the goats' udders. "This job, how do you feel about it?" I ask him. "A bad thing? Good thing?" "It's a great thing," Pate tells me. "It beats the alternative. Rather than sitting in your tiny little cell, you get to come out here." Every man I meet echoes that thought. They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good.
      - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        > They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good. You're making the case that it is involuntary. "Do this or we shall do to you something worse against your will" is textbook coercion.
        moron4hire 6y ago
        But it's the thing that would already be done to them if the work program was not available. We put criminals in prison because of the crimes they commit, not because of the jobs they refuse once they are there.
        6y ago
- jvreagan 6y ago
  Prisoner firefighters in California are volunteers that opt in and receive significantly reduced sentences for their service and often end up working for Calfire upon release.
  - virtue3 6y ago
    they -just- made a ruling that would overturn this, but this was not the case until -very-very-very- recently. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/20/californias-volunteer-inmate-firefighters-denied-jobs-after-release-column/987677002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/08/20/california...
  - rurp 6y ago
    According to this article from a couple years ago the convict firefighters are frequently excluded from doing those jobs after being released. https://www.axios.com/how-inmates-who-fight-wildfires-are-later-denied-firefighting-jobs-1513306736-c63805dd-c2fb-4c04-a81e-1f9a7058ef34.html https://www.axios.com/how-inmates-who-fight-wildfires-are-la...
aaomidi 6y ago
Yes. The US has slave labor too. This distinction seems like us trying to protect our own interests in regards to keeping slavery legal in the United States too.
cforrester 6y ago
I think you're thinking of "slavery" as a term applying exclusively to chattel slavery, but it's far from exclusive to that form. Bonded labour and forced labour are commonly recognized forms of slavery, as people are obligated to serve another under threat of violence.
woodruffw 6y ago
You're conflating slavery and chattel slavery. As others have mentioned, the 13th Amendment explicitly carves out forced labor as a legal form of slavery under a course of punishment. Referring to it as slavery does nothing to diminish the atrocities of chattel slavery.
rhn_mk1 6y ago
> Equating forced labour as a whole with slavery, which is frequently used to refer to what existed in the US (HN audience is to large degree US-based) before 1865, may seem inconsiderate to those whose ancestors had to endure the latter. I don't see this as a reason to cut off the discussion. Trying to distance forced labor from slavery may seem incosiderate to those who had to endure the former. There's no escaping the inconsideration considerations, so I prefer to discuss the topic at hand without that baggage.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  Also, at least in the US, - slavery is allowed explicitly for prison labor, - there was a concerted effort after the end of slavery to put former slaves and their descendants into things that were almost like slavery, including mass incarceration