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but - not being able to conduct its investigation doesn't automatically cause China to be in the wrong. More evidence is needed here. (Independent review being
by bbarn 6y ago
but - not being able to conduct its investigation doesn't automatically cause China to be in the wrong. More evidence is needed here. (Independent review being disallowed nationally is a bigger concern I will admit)
- esarbe 6y agoIn cases like there were actually investigating can land the people doing the investigating in prison, I think proceed according to the cautionary principle. So, if a tyrannical dictatorship like China is accused of abusing human rights and said tyrannical dictatorship is not willing to let people investigate the claims, we can accept the accusations as true until aforementioned tyrannical dictatorship is willing to let people investigate. No need for 'in dubio pro reo' in such cases.
- esarbe 6y agoThanks for the downvotes, it was a good conversation.
- f6v 6y ago> tyrannical dictatorship I honestly think that's a bit too far.
- esarbe 6y agoIs it, though? About the dictatorship we don't need to have a discussion, do we? The "tyrannic" part: A tyrant is an absolute ruler who is unrestrained by law. This pretty much describes the Chinese Communist Party. Critics are silenced, dissidents are disappeared, non-han-chinese are robbed of their heritage. (See the Uigurs or the Mongols.) Even if you don't violate the law, you'll get punished through it[0]. There's massive corruption and people's rights are violated in routine and international agreements are ignored (see Hong Kong). Yeah, I think the shoe fits. [0] https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2020-12-04/chinese-communist-party-failed https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2020-12-04/chi...
- onethought 6y agoThat fits the US foot as well... - Native peoples destruction (robbed of heritage) - Spying on allies (breaks international agreements) - Lobbyists and presidential pardons (massive corruption)
- esarbe 6y agoYeah, well... I think the U.S. has some massive problems, but that's on another page and although I'd love to talk about these problems, let's stick with China for now. That a big enough pig.
- onethought 6y agoYes, my house is on fire, and that's a big issue that should be addressed, but check out the big fire across the road. Let's focus on that one. (As someone who does not live in the US, it's hard to take the consistent negativity on China and the wilful ignorance on US domestic issues seriously, without just seeing it as propaganda...)
- esarbe 6y agoSince I don't live in the U.S. either, I don't see why we should include the U.S. in this discussion. I'll happily comment about the prison-industrial-complex or legalized corruption or about the dangers of militarized police... if it is the topic at hand. The issue at hand is how China and Apple are profiting from slave labor, how much this is by design or by neglect and what to do about it. Let's keep the discussion limited to that.
- onethought 6y agoBut Apple is a US company... lots of US companies take advantage of (domestic) prison labour. How is the US not part of this discussion???
- 6y ago
- ardy42 6y ago>> tyrannical dictatorship > I honestly think that's a bit too far. Tyrannical oligarchy moving towards dictatorship, then. Better?
- esarbe 6y agoThanks for the effort, but I think I really would like to stick with 'tyrannical dictatorship'. For me, it just fits better.
- threeseed 6y agoAgreed that it is a bit too far. Emphasis on the bit. It is a de-facto dictatorship and it is tyrannical by many definitions.