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I hate how American (and European) companies will virtue signal with commercials and campaigns (Apple and Nike come to mind) toting their ESG credentials but th

I hate how American (and European) companies will virtue signal with commercials and campaigns (Apple and Nike come to mind) toting their ESG credentials but then will be doing stuff like this. People fall for it and it really pisses me off. Welcome to marketing. It’s also crazy to me that China isn’t facing more severe backlash for the treatment of the Uyghurs. It’s reprehensible and disgusting.

edoceo 6y ago
ESG == Environmental, Social and Corp Governance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social_and_corporate_governance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social_and_co...
Jommi 6y ago
What other way would you suggest companies could link shareholder incentives and ethics? Hitting ESG metrics / recieving ESG credentials is a way for companies to benefit from doing the right thing.
- MaxHoppersGhost 6y ago
  I am a proponent of ESG but (to me at least) it doesn’t appear there is a standardized method of calculation for metrics and things like forced labor (Nike, Apple) or pandering to a govt by censoring (NBA, Google) aren’t being captured. I could be off as I haven’t studied it that much. Everyone can agree what GAAP net income is but calculating ESG metrics is much more subjective.
- findthewords 6y ago
  Ethical behaviour cannot be measured. Companies are still maximising shareholder value. They are doing it by gaming ESG metrics. Nothing has changed.
  - Jommi 6y ago
    I think it can be approximated. And that's better than nothing. Would you agree?
herbst 6y ago
The uyghurs thing was mostly a us media thing that plaid into trumps hands. There was barely if any media interest here in europe. Personally i have no opinion but from here it looked more like a obvious us political tactic than an actual huge issue. I could be totally wrong tho, but this sentiment may explains why there was no real reaction ot was basically the wrong person talking about it.
- MaxHoppersGhost 6y ago
  Uyghurs is a bipartisan issue not just a Trump thing (although it does play to his hand). Biden mentioned it a few times and I think even once in a debate.
bdz 6y ago
>I hate how American (and European) companies will virtue signal with commercials and campaigns (Apple and Nike come to mind) toting their ESG credentials but then will be doing stuff like this My favorite https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/034/229/Bethesda_Pride_Month_Logos_Banner.jpg https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/034/229/Bethe... Companies don't care though but consumers also have to realize they are not your friends either
thepasswordis 6y ago
The absolute most egregious example of this (imo) is Colin Kaepernick. He is literally paid by slavers. He is a multi-millionaire off of the profits of slave labor. It's disgusting that Nike is somehow putting forth a "woke" face while literally using slaves to build their products. Slavery is not woke. And Colin Kaepernick is a particular sort of disgusting that he is happy to accept millions of dollars from slavers, while also shaming people who don't adhere to some hypocritical fight for racial justice, which he himself does not adhere to, and is in fact in on the profits of.
- MaxHoppersGhost 6y ago
  I was going to mention Kaepernick but decided not to to avoid the knee jerk downvotes. I agree but wouldn’t have used such strong language. It’s such a ridiculous double standard and I have friends that eat up the Kaerpernick marketing without thinking about it. I agree with Kaepernick’s message but the fact that Nike is backing him with that message is such a joke.
- Cyph0n 6y ago
  Sounds like the kneeling really got to some people!
  - drak0n1c 6y ago
    The President's casual tweeting really got to some people too. Weird. Perhaps it's a common and reasonable response to be concerned when an imprecise arrogant messenger amplifies tribalism and grievance politics.
    - Cyph0n 6y ago
      If “tribalism and grievance politics” is what you got out of Colin’s protesting, then I’m not sure what else to say here haha :p
  - spoopyskelly 6y ago
    Sounds like the hypocrisy got to some people!
Siira 6y ago
Rather than people falling for it, they have pretty much the same incentives as the corporations. They like virtue signaling, when its costs are negligible and the externalities fall on others, but they don’t sacrifice cheap goods for some pretty lies.
jedberg 6y ago
What exactly did Apple do? The hired a contractor, and they just found out that contractor is using slave labor, so now they are investigating. The last time they found out a contractor was using slave labor, they severed the relationship. I'm not sure what else you'd expect them to do exactly.
- MaxHoppersGhost 6y ago
  I would expect one of the largest and most powerful companies in the world that is always virtue signaling to have their supply chain 100% slave free. That is not a big ask.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    It's a pretty big ask actually. They have 1000s of suppliers. I'm sure their vetting process is pretty thorough already, and then they act swiftly when they find out something was missed. Feel reasonable to me.
    - 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
      Instead of rambling about social justice better start vet your suppliers. People think Facebook should be responsible and vet what billions of people write online but somehow Apple the wealthiest company can't vet their damn supply chain? It has really come to this that these affluent privileged Silicon Valley tech bros rather have some 90 year old arrested for not wearing a mask while rambling about it on Twitter than have Apple vet their God damn suppliers.
  - doctor_eval 6y ago
    The relationship between Apple and its suppliers is, ultimately, antagonistic. Apple wants to maximise units of work per dollar, their suppliers want to maximise dollars per unit of work. This creates an incentive for suppliers to cheat. This makes the situation way, way more complex than “Apple needs to audit its supply chain”. While true, any such audit is going to be actively sabotaged by the suppliers. This will include actions like hiding workers, forcing them to lie, or moving them strategically between production lines to hide the truth. I don’t mean to defend Apple here. I’m not sure what stops them creating their own businesses in China and Vietnam and elsewhere, where they directly hire the workers. Why does Apple outsource this stuff in the first place? Perhaps that’s the standard we should be holding them to.
TheKarateKid 6y ago
It's amazing how Apple is able to maintain and enforce such strict quality and secrecy amongst their suppliers, yet they seem to fail often when it comes to labor and human rights violations. I don't think it's a coincidence. There's a clear lack of effort here, or at least not on par with their other ones.
AntiImperialis3 6y ago
>Welcome to marketing. >It’s also crazy to me that China isn’t facing more severe backlash for the treatment of the Uyghurs. Yeah, welcome to marketing indeed. China is not treating Uyghurs any worse than the US is treating black people or Mexicans. In fact, China is doing exactly what the U.S. is doing to minorities: jailing them and making inmates more productive with prison labor.

edoceo 6y ago

ESG == Environmental, Social and Corp Governance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social_and_corporate_governance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social_and_co...

Jommi 6y ago

What other way would you suggest companies could link shareholder incentives and ethics? Hitting ESG metrics / recieving ESG credentials is a way for companies to benefit from doing the right thing.

MaxHoppersGhost 6y ago
I am a proponent of ESG but (to me at least) it doesn’t appear there is a standardized method of calculation for metrics and things like forced labor (Nike, Apple) or pandering to a govt by censoring (NBA, Google) aren’t being captured. I could be off as I haven’t studied it that much. Everyone can agree what GAAP net income is but calculating ESG metrics is much more subjective.
findthewords 6y ago
Ethical behaviour cannot be measured. Companies are still maximising shareholder value. They are doing it by gaming ESG metrics. Nothing has changed.
- Jommi 6y ago
  I think it can be approximated. And that's better than nothing. Would you agree?

herbst 6y ago

The uyghurs thing was mostly a us media thing that plaid into trumps hands. There was barely if any media interest here in europe. Personally i have no opinion but from here it looked more like a obvious us political tactic than an actual huge issue. I could be totally wrong tho, but this sentiment may explains why there was no real reaction ot was basically the wrong person talking about it.

MaxHoppersGhost 6y ago
Uyghurs is a bipartisan issue not just a Trump thing (although it does play to his hand). Biden mentioned it a few times and I think even once in a debate.

bdz 6y ago

>I hate how American (and European) companies will virtue signal with commercials and campaigns (Apple and Nike come to mind) toting their ESG credentials but then will be doing stuff like this My favorite https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/034/229/Bethesda_Pride_Month_Logos_Banner.jpg https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/034/229/Bethe... Companies don't care though but consumers also have to realize they are not your friends either

thepasswordis 6y ago

The absolute most egregious example of this (imo) is Colin Kaepernick. He is literally paid by slavers. He is a multi-millionaire off of the profits of slave labor. It's disgusting that Nike is somehow putting forth a "woke" face while literally using slaves to build their products. Slavery is not woke. And Colin Kaepernick is a particular sort of disgusting that he is happy to accept millions of dollars from slavers, while also shaming people who don't adhere to some hypocritical fight for racial justice, which he himself does not adhere to, and is in fact in on the profits of.

MaxHoppersGhost 6y ago
I was going to mention Kaepernick but decided not to to avoid the knee jerk downvotes. I agree but wouldn’t have used such strong language. It’s such a ridiculous double standard and I have friends that eat up the Kaerpernick marketing without thinking about it. I agree with Kaepernick’s message but the fact that Nike is backing him with that message is such a joke.
Cyph0n 6y ago
Sounds like the kneeling really got to some people!
- drak0n1c 6y ago
  The President's casual tweeting really got to some people too. Weird. Perhaps it's a common and reasonable response to be concerned when an imprecise arrogant messenger amplifies tribalism and grievance politics.
  - Cyph0n 6y ago
    If “tribalism and grievance politics” is what you got out of Colin’s protesting, then I’m not sure what else to say here haha :p
- spoopyskelly 6y ago
  Sounds like the hypocrisy got to some people!

Siira 6y ago

Rather than people falling for it, they have pretty much the same incentives as the corporations. They like virtue signaling, when its costs are negligible and the externalities fall on others, but they don’t sacrifice cheap goods for some pretty lies.

jedberg 6y ago

What exactly did Apple do? The hired a contractor, and they just found out that contractor is using slave labor, so now they are investigating. The last time they found out a contractor was using slave labor, they severed the relationship. I'm not sure what else you'd expect them to do exactly.

MaxHoppersGhost 6y ago
I would expect one of the largest and most powerful companies in the world that is always virtue signaling to have their supply chain 100% slave free. That is not a big ask.
- jedberg 6y ago
  It's a pretty big ask actually. They have 1000s of suppliers. I'm sure their vetting process is pretty thorough already, and then they act swiftly when they find out something was missed. Feel reasonable to me.
  - 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
    Instead of rambling about social justice better start vet your suppliers. People think Facebook should be responsible and vet what billions of people write online but somehow Apple the wealthiest company can't vet their damn supply chain? It has really come to this that these affluent privileged Silicon Valley tech bros rather have some 90 year old arrested for not wearing a mask while rambling about it on Twitter than have Apple vet their God damn suppliers.
- doctor_eval 6y ago
  The relationship between Apple and its suppliers is, ultimately, antagonistic. Apple wants to maximise units of work per dollar, their suppliers want to maximise dollars per unit of work. This creates an incentive for suppliers to cheat. This makes the situation way, way more complex than “Apple needs to audit its supply chain”. While true, any such audit is going to be actively sabotaged by the suppliers. This will include actions like hiding workers, forcing them to lie, or moving them strategically between production lines to hide the truth. I don’t mean to defend Apple here. I’m not sure what stops them creating their own businesses in China and Vietnam and elsewhere, where they directly hire the workers. Why does Apple outsource this stuff in the first place? Perhaps that’s the standard we should be holding them to.

TheKarateKid 6y ago

It's amazing how Apple is able to maintain and enforce such strict quality and secrecy amongst their suppliers, yet they seem to fail often when it comes to labor and human rights violations. I don't think it's a coincidence. There's a clear lack of effort here, or at least not on par with their other ones.

AntiImperialis3 6y ago

>Welcome to marketing. >It’s also crazy to me that China isn’t facing more severe backlash for the treatment of the Uyghurs. Yeah, welcome to marketing indeed. China is not treating Uyghurs any worse than the US is treating black people or Mexicans. In fact, China is doing exactly what the U.S. is doing to minorities: jailing them and making inmates more productive with prison labor.