28 ms·

Why should I believe what the "Tech Transparency Project" (funded by Open Society Foundations) says over what Apple and China say? Honest question.

by eznzt 6y ago

xyst 6y ago
because investigations performed by the companies or governments themselves tend to portray themselves as not culpable for any actions (often omitting pertinent details). Independent review is the only way to be honest.
- bbarn 6y ago
  but - not being able to conduct its investigation doesn't automatically cause China to be in the wrong. More evidence is needed here. (Independent review being disallowed nationally is a bigger concern I will admit)
  - esarbe 6y ago
    In cases like there were actually investigating can land the people doing the investigating in prison, I think proceed according to the cautionary principle. So, if a tyrannical dictatorship like China is accused of abusing human rights and said tyrannical dictatorship is not willing to let people investigate the claims, we can accept the accusations as true until aforementioned tyrannical dictatorship is willing to let people investigate. No need for 'in dubio pro reo' in such cases.
    - esarbe 6y ago
      Thanks for the downvotes, it was a good conversation.
    - f6v 6y ago
      > tyrannical dictatorship I honestly think that's a bit too far.
      - esarbe 6y ago
        Is it, though? About the dictatorship we don't need to have a discussion, do we? The "tyrannic" part: A tyrant is an absolute ruler who is unrestrained by law. This pretty much describes the Chinese Communist Party. Critics are silenced, dissidents are disappeared, non-han-chinese are robbed of their heritage. (See the Uigurs or the Mongols.) Even if you don't violate the law, you'll get punished through it[0]. There's massive corruption and people's rights are violated in routine and international agreements are ignored (see Hong Kong). Yeah, I think the shoe fits. [0] https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2020-12-04/chinese-communist-party-failed https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2020-12-04/chi...
        onethought 6y ago
        That fits the US foot as well... - Native peoples destruction (robbed of heritage) - Spying on allies (breaks international agreements) - Lobbyists and presidential pardons (massive corruption)
        esarbe 6y ago
        Yeah, well... I think the U.S. has some massive problems, but that's on another page and although I'd love to talk about these problems, let's stick with China for now. That a big enough pig.
        onethought 6y ago
        Yes, my house is on fire, and that's a big issue that should be addressed, but check out the big fire across the road. Let's focus on that one. (As someone who does not live in the US, it's hard to take the consistent negativity on China and the wilful ignorance on US domestic issues seriously, without just seeing it as propaganda...)
        esarbe 6y ago
        Since I don't live in the U.S. either, I don't see why we should include the U.S. in this discussion. I'll happily comment about the prison-industrial-complex or legalized corruption or about the dangers of militarized police... if it is the topic at hand. The issue at hand is how China and Apple are profiting from slave labor, how much this is by design or by neglect and what to do about it. Let's keep the discussion limited to that.
- eznzt 6y ago
  These reviews are not necessarily independent. If they don't yield any results the organisations lose their funding. So they have the incentive to be as dishonest as Apple and China are.
  - esarbe 6y ago
    No, they don't. China and Apple have their reputation to protect, so they have a very high stake in the game. The Tech Transparency Project's goal is to uncover misconduct and malfeasance in public life. They don't have to 'prove' any wrongdoing with regards to Apple or China. If their research with regards to Apple or Chine doesn't pan out, they have many, many more potential targets without danger of losing any funding at all.
    - threatofrain 6y ago
      But this is just a mitigating argument, and even in this framing Apple and China seem like very big targets.
  - wolverine876 6y ago
    > not necessarily Do you have any serious evidence? Otherwise we are raising random possible problems. Maybe it's a false flag! Maybe it's the CIA or FSB or Martians! Maybe! Not necessarily!
    - esarbe 6y ago
      hehe
cgb223 6y ago
Who is behind the Open Society Foundation? Anyone super political?
- syedkarim 6y ago
  George Soros
  - jiofih 6y ago
    What an answer to “anyone super political?” :D
ksk 6y ago
Can you please list a few news and public policy research organizations you find trustworthy? That will make it easier for everyone to reply to you.
theon144 6y ago
Honest question in return, why should I distrust it? The claims seem to be roughly in line with many other reports about the Xinjiang region, China's government and worker conditions in the tech sector. Is there something you are implying?
- spoopyskelly 6y ago
  You trust everything you read?
- dirtyid 6y ago
  Other reports funded by those aligned with US foreign interests. If it conforms to Chinese government behaviour then these are extremely public and predominantly well compensated rural labour transfer programs occuring in other provinces that alleviates poverty for 10s of millions every year. If it's anything like Chinese tech (it's not) then they would be extremely well compensated and overworked relative to rest of society. In Mike Pompeo's words: We Lied, We Cheated, We Stole. That should be the default assumption when treating these analysis, especially when they contradict each other i.e. Zenz estimates of millions detained is based off fanciful estimate of 1,200 camps... GIS analysis found only ~300, but the same analysis that essentially debunks Zenz will still blindly reaffirm his claims. It's manufactured consent. The implication is reality is worse than CCP purports but better than US funded analysis alleges, especially considering ongoing geopolitical tensions. Per leaked XJ internal documents, these are indoctorination and vocational training camps designed to secularize and alleviate poverty. Abuse will happen when operating at large scales, but CCP "political work" and demographic engineering has always operated on carrot and stick. It's more or less a proven model that works more often than it doesn't. There's a reason why the current narrative tries to insinuate it's only stick, and has to operate on fabrications, cherry picked data, repeated testimonies from the same handful of people. It's Pompeo / state department's prerogative to lie, cheat, steal for US interests. People should understand this, except those for whose interest depends upon them not to.
dillondoyle 6y ago
If you don't believe them would you believe the US government, State Department, EU government, and the world's best free and independent press? What about leaked primary sources from CCP [leaks]? Huge volume of facts and research from all kinds of sources on the systemic genocide and forced labor of Uighurs and other ethnic / geographic minorities (Tibet, now scarily Hong Kong jailing and threatening the previously free press). You can even see it on Google Maps. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/against-their-will-the-situation-in-xinjiang https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/against-their-will-the-sit... https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alison_killing/xinjiang-camps-china-factories-forced-labor https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alison_killing/xinjiang... https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/what-forced-labor-in-xinjiang-means-for-supply-chain-due-diligence/ https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/what-forced-labor-in-xinjian... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/resolution-12192019145547.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/resolution-121920191... https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20191212IPR68927/china-must-close-its-re-education-camps-for-uyghurs-in-xinjiang-meps-say https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20191212IP... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/world/asia/china-muslims-xinjiang-detention.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/world/asia/china-muslims-... https://www.state.gov/reports/2019-report-on-international-religious-freedom/china/xinjiang/ https://www.state.gov/reports/2019-report-on-international-r... [leaks] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/china-xinjiang-documents.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/ch... [maps] https://nationalawakening.org/coordinates/ https://nationalawakening.org/coordinates/ https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alison_killing/satellite-images-investigation-xinjiang-detention-camps https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alison_killing/satellit... https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/china-internment-camps-muslim-uighurs-satellite/569878/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/ch... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expose-chinas-network-of-re-education-camps/10432924?nw=0 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expo...
JohnTHaller 6y ago
Well, Apple is fighting against US legislation to thwart slave labor.
- pimeys 6y ago
  Here's a source for this claim. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-uighur/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u...
- judge2020 6y ago
  Because the bill says "you can't use slave labor" but also "you can't audit your supply chain to determine if slave labor is being used because audits are unreliable" so the only way to comply with a bill like that would be to completely pull out of China. Apple is desperately trying to do this with Vietnam and India plants but it doesn't happen overnight.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
There are satellite images of slave laborers in exactly that region. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.courthousenews.com/evidence-shows-uighur-forced-labor-in-chinese-cotton-fields/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.courthousenews.com/evidence... The only news here is that they are using slaves for higher tech work than cotton.
wolverine876 6y ago
What is your answer? How do you evaluate claims and sources, and this claim and source? You seem to imply that you can't see any difference, and if that's the case (which I doubt), nobody can help you. > Honest question. Are other questions are dishonest? Why should we trust you?

Why should I believe what the "Tech Transparency Project" (funded by Open Society Foundations) says over what Apple and China say? Honest question.

by eznzt 6y ago

Why should I believe what the "Tech Transparency Project" (funded by Open Society Foundations) says over what Apple and China say? Honest question.

xyst 6y ago

because investigations performed by the companies or governments themselves tend to portray themselves as not culpable for any actions (often omitting pertinent details). Independent review is the only way to be honest.

bbarn 6y ago
but - not being able to conduct its investigation doesn't automatically cause China to be in the wrong. More evidence is needed here. (Independent review being disallowed nationally is a bigger concern I will admit)
- esarbe 6y ago
  In cases like there were actually investigating can land the people doing the investigating in prison, I think proceed according to the cautionary principle. So, if a tyrannical dictatorship like China is accused of abusing human rights and said tyrannical dictatorship is not willing to let people investigate the claims, we can accept the accusations as true until aforementioned tyrannical dictatorship is willing to let people investigate. No need for 'in dubio pro reo' in such cases.
  - esarbe 6y ago
    Thanks for the downvotes, it was a good conversation.
  - f6v 6y ago
    > tyrannical dictatorship I honestly think that's a bit too far.
    - esarbe 6y ago
      Is it, though? About the dictatorship we don't need to have a discussion, do we? The "tyrannic" part: A tyrant is an absolute ruler who is unrestrained by law. This pretty much describes the Chinese Communist Party. Critics are silenced, dissidents are disappeared, non-han-chinese are robbed of their heritage. (See the Uigurs or the Mongols.) Even if you don't violate the law, you'll get punished through it[0]. There's massive corruption and people's rights are violated in routine and international agreements are ignored (see Hong Kong). Yeah, I think the shoe fits. [0] https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2020-12-04/chinese-communist-party-failed https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2020-12-04/chi...
      - onethought 6y ago
        That fits the US foot as well... - Native peoples destruction (robbed of heritage) - Spying on allies (breaks international agreements) - Lobbyists and presidential pardons (massive corruption)
        esarbe 6y ago
        Yeah, well... I think the U.S. has some massive problems, but that's on another page and although I'd love to talk about these problems, let's stick with China for now. That a big enough pig.
        onethought 6y ago
        Yes, my house is on fire, and that's a big issue that should be addressed, but check out the big fire across the road. Let's focus on that one. (As someone who does not live in the US, it's hard to take the consistent negativity on China and the wilful ignorance on US domestic issues seriously, without just seeing it as propaganda...)
        esarbe 6y ago
        Since I don't live in the U.S. either, I don't see why we should include the U.S. in this discussion. I'll happily comment about the prison-industrial-complex or legalized corruption or about the dangers of militarized police... if it is the topic at hand. The issue at hand is how China and Apple are profiting from slave labor, how much this is by design or by neglect and what to do about it. Let's keep the discussion limited to that.
eznzt 6y ago
These reviews are not necessarily independent. If they don't yield any results the organisations lose their funding. So they have the incentive to be as dishonest as Apple and China are.
- esarbe 6y ago
  No, they don't. China and Apple have their reputation to protect, so they have a very high stake in the game. The Tech Transparency Project's goal is to uncover misconduct and malfeasance in public life. They don't have to 'prove' any wrongdoing with regards to Apple or China. If their research with regards to Apple or Chine doesn't pan out, they have many, many more potential targets without danger of losing any funding at all.
  - threatofrain 6y ago
    But this is just a mitigating argument, and even in this framing Apple and China seem like very big targets.
- wolverine876 6y ago
  > not necessarily Do you have any serious evidence? Otherwise we are raising random possible problems. Maybe it's a false flag! Maybe it's the CIA or FSB or Martians! Maybe! Not necessarily!
  - esarbe 6y ago
    hehe

cgb223 6y ago

Who is behind the Open Society Foundation? Anyone super political?

syedkarim 6y ago
George Soros
- jiofih 6y ago
  What an answer to “anyone super political?” :D

ksk 6y ago

Can you please list a few news and public policy research organizations you find trustworthy? That will make it easier for everyone to reply to you.

theon144 6y ago

Honest question in return, why should I distrust it? The claims seem to be roughly in line with many other reports about the Xinjiang region, China's government and worker conditions in the tech sector. Is there something you are implying?

spoopyskelly 6y ago
You trust everything you read?
dirtyid 6y ago
Other reports funded by those aligned with US foreign interests. If it conforms to Chinese government behaviour then these are extremely public and predominantly well compensated rural labour transfer programs occuring in other provinces that alleviates poverty for 10s of millions every year. If it's anything like Chinese tech (it's not) then they would be extremely well compensated and overworked relative to rest of society. In Mike Pompeo's words: We Lied, We Cheated, We Stole. That should be the default assumption when treating these analysis, especially when they contradict each other i.e. Zenz estimates of millions detained is based off fanciful estimate of 1,200 camps... GIS analysis found only ~300, but the same analysis that essentially debunks Zenz will still blindly reaffirm his claims. It's manufactured consent. The implication is reality is worse than CCP purports but better than US funded analysis alleges, especially considering ongoing geopolitical tensions. Per leaked XJ internal documents, these are indoctorination and vocational training camps designed to secularize and alleviate poverty. Abuse will happen when operating at large scales, but CCP "political work" and demographic engineering has always operated on carrot and stick. It's more or less a proven model that works more often than it doesn't. There's a reason why the current narrative tries to insinuate it's only stick, and has to operate on fabrications, cherry picked data, repeated testimonies from the same handful of people. It's Pompeo / state department's prerogative to lie, cheat, steal for US interests. People should understand this, except those for whose interest depends upon them not to.

dillondoyle 6y ago

If you don't believe them would you believe the US government, State Department, EU government, and the world's best free and independent press? What about leaked primary sources from CCP [leaks]? Huge volume of facts and research from all kinds of sources on the systemic genocide and forced labor of Uighurs and other ethnic / geographic minorities (Tibet, now scarily Hong Kong jailing and threatening the previously free press). You can even see it on Google Maps. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/against-their-will-the-situation-in-xinjiang https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/against-their-will-the-sit... https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alison_killing/xinjiang-camps-china-factories-forced-labor https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alison_killing/xinjiang... https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/what-forced-labor-in-xinjiang-means-for-supply-chain-due-diligence/ https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/what-forced-labor-in-xinjian... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/resolution-12192019145547.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/resolution-121920191... https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20191212IPR68927/china-must-close-its-re-education-camps-for-uyghurs-in-xinjiang-meps-say https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20191212IP... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/world/asia/china-muslims-xinjiang-detention.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/world/asia/china-muslims-... https://www.state.gov/reports/2019-report-on-international-religious-freedom/china/xinjiang/ https://www.state.gov/reports/2019-report-on-international-r... [leaks] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/china-xinjiang-documents.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/ch... [maps] https://nationalawakening.org/coordinates/ https://nationalawakening.org/coordinates/ https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alison_killing/satellite-images-investigation-xinjiang-detention-camps https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alison_killing/satellit... https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/china-internment-camps-muslim-uighurs-satellite/569878/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/ch... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expose-chinas-network-of-re-education-camps/10432924?nw=0 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expo...

JohnTHaller 6y ago

Well, Apple is fighting against US legislation to thwart slave labor.

pimeys 6y ago
Here's a source for this claim. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-uighur/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u...
judge2020 6y ago
Because the bill says "you can't use slave labor" but also "you can't audit your supply chain to determine if slave labor is being used because audits are unreliable" so the only way to comply with a bill like that would be to completely pull out of China. Apple is desperately trying to do this with Vietnam and India plants but it doesn't happen overnight.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

There are satellite images of slave laborers in exactly that region. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.courthousenews.com/evidence-shows-uighur-forced-labor-in-chinese-cotton-fields/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.courthousenews.com/evidence... The only news here is that they are using slaves for higher tech work than cotton.

wolverine876 6y ago

What is your answer? How do you evaluate claims and sources, and this claim and source? You seem to imply that you can't see any difference, and if that's the case (which I doubt), nobody can help you. > Honest question. Are other questions are dishonest? Why should we trust you?