5 ms·

A random person being scared of something near their home does not make it actually dangerous. LNG doesn't explode like in the movies, it needs to vaporize and

by jjk166 6y ago

A random person being scared of something near their home does not make it actually dangerous. LNG doesn't explode like in the movies, it needs to vaporize and mix with oxygen to burn. A leak in an enclosed space can pose an explosion risk, but that's not an issue for a rail car sitting outside. Boiloff can potentially cause a tank to rupture, but this is easily prevented with a pressure release valve. If there is a leak, there is of course a fire hazard, but such a hazard is no worse than the leak of an oil tank. In fact, where an oil leak could potentially allow a large amount of fuel to pool up creating an explosive hazard prior to ignition, natural gas will mostly dissipate harmlessly prior to ignition. LNG transport is generally safer than crude oil transport, and a crude oil spill has much worse environmental effects. If you are comfortable with oil being transported through densely populated areas, you should be fine with this.

Pfhreak 6y ago
Would a crash be sufficient to cause a sudden aerosolization of the lng? It seems to me that it could, but I am not an expert. Natural gas has a smell added because it has historically exploded... > If you are comfortable with oil being transported through densely populated areas, you should be fine with this. What if I'm not comfortable moving crude but train?
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >Would a crash be sufficient to cause a sudden aerosolization of the lng? Well yes, but actually no. You can't get a freight train up to the kind of speed you need to create an "instantly dump the contents of the pressure vessel" type crash without creating a "slowly vent the contents out" type crash first. You would need to use a bomb to rupture a pressure vessel to get the kind of fuel/air mix you need for an explosion or fireball. Fuel-air explosives operate in this manner. But they are devices with countless engineering man-hours spent making them actually work and fairly precise manufacturing. Parking ye ol' Winnebago (or Penske, if you're a history buff) beside the tracks and waiting for the train to go by is not going to be a very productive approach. Look at people blowing up propane tanks on YouTube. At best they get a fireball. I'd much rather have nat-gas wafting up and away rather than crude oil, propane, or some other volatile that sits at ground level.
  - Retric 6y ago
    You get real differences of scale which makes smaller models inconsistent with what happens in a train derailment. Lac-Mégantic rail disaster for example had some serious explosions from oil.
    - Arnt 6y ago
      According to the Wikipedia article there was much destruction, but... that happened when the oil flowed where it shouldn't and then burned in places where one really doesn't want it to burn. Lighter-than-air gas is crucially different. If you let that leak out it won't flow downhill through the city, it'll go straight up. Of course you can argue that gas is dangerous, but not by example of an accident where most of the flammable material flowed away (and caused harm elsewhere) instead of either burning or exploding at the site.
      - Retric 6y ago
        LNG isn’t a gas, it’s a cryogenic liquid like liquid nitrogen except flammable. If we are talking say 100+ DOT-111 tank car‘s that’s 3,450,000+ gallons which isn’t going to simply fly into the air instantly. The phase change from liquid to has takes significant energy at the scale which takes time. Again it’s a question of scale, you don’t think of say molasses as fast moving liquid but increase the scale to 2.3 million gallons and you can be talking about a 25 foot tall 35 mph wave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Molasses_Flood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Molasses_Flood
        Arnt 6y ago
        AIUI it's not flammable. It is flammable when mixed with air in the right proportion, but if it's mixed with air it is a gas and rises straight up, rather than flow as a wave across the landscape. You can't have your cake and eat it.
        Retric 6y ago
        Again small scale vs large scale. If your talking a square foot of the stuff then it’s going to rise like your suggesting. Cover a few acres in LNG you get complex boundary layer interactions and giant swirls of natural gas mixed with air. Read up on how you can get temperature inversion layers in the atmosphere. In your model that kind of effect shouldn’t happen, but actual fluid dynamics gets complicated.
- ars 6y ago
  Natural gas is lighter than air. Any such aerosolization would rapidly go up into the sky. It would make a fire, but not a disaster.
- Ottolay 6y ago
  It could. But so could a crash of a truck or a train carrying any type of liquid/gaseous fuel (e.g. truck carrying the gas to your local gas station). The article talk about LNG requiring thicker tanks than ethylene and ethane, both of which could also 100% explode if in a wreck. I think the worry is that the volume of shipments for LNG would be much higher, and hence the probability of something happening is higher. A singular shipment of LNG would be no worse than a single shipment of car gas.
- jjk166 6y ago
  It's not enough to just aerosolize the LNG, it needs to mix with air in a rather narrow fuel-air ratio of 5-15% to burn. Further the flame front speed of methane in open air is only 4 mph - it won't explode, though as the flame front spreads it might kind of look like an explosion (think about what it looks like when you light a gas stove or grill). Such a fireball can potentially ignite things in close proximity, but there won't be a pressure wave that damages structures, so you can't have a situation where one tank 'exploding' causes other tanks to explode, though in a crash it's easily possible multiple tanks are damaged. Natural gas is an explosion hazard in enclosed spaces. If you walk into your house and smell gas, that's very dangerous. Note also that even if there is no explosion hazard, fire is still dangerous. If you are uncomfortable with rail transport of crude, that's a perfectly legitimate stance to take. Honestly, transporting any flammable substance (and many non-flammable ones as well) does pose risks. If you know the risks and benefits and think the former outweigh the latter, let people and especially your representatives in government know. However, society generally seems to accept rail transport of oil and similar chemicals, so outrage over the transport of a less dangerous substance seems like it would be more likely to come from a place of ignorance than rational analysis.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - uep 6y ago
    Your statements do not seem to be consistent with those in the article. > Ray Mentzer, a chemical engineer at Purdue University, spent his career working on LNG projects for Exxon Mobil. He says the specially designed containers that transport hydrocarbons have a good safety record. But he says transporting the gas through densely populated areas increases the risk if there's a leak. > "It's not flammable until it's vaporized, but it's going to be vaporized pretty darn quickly and then it's going to seek an ignition source," he says. "Believe me, it will find an ignition source pretty darn readily." I will also note that those train tracks in the town in the photos had a derailment only a few years back. I am familiar with the area and know people who live there. https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about/media/train-derails-paulsboro-nj-releasing-23000-gallons-toxic-vinyl-chloride-gas.html https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about/media/train-dera...
Retric 6y ago
The problem isn’t a train with a single car of LNG, it’s a derailment of a train carrying mostly LNG. Trains of Oil, LNG, or other flammable liquid can become a major hazard in ways that a train full of say lumber isn’t. Forty-two people were confirmed dead, with five more missing and presumed dead.[3] More than 30 buildings in the town's centre, roughly half of the downtown area, were destroyed,[2][4] and all but three of the thirty-nine remaining downtown buildings had to be demolished due to petroleum contamination of the townsite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-Mégantic_rail_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-Mégantic_rail_disaster
- ars 6y ago
  Exactly! And none of that would happen with LNG because natural gas is lighter than air, it would all rapidly rise into the sky and make a very pretty, and harmless, fire. And speaking of lumber: https://bangordailynews.com/2020/07/29/news/a-scene-from-hell-train-derails-on-arizona-bridge-that-collapses-catches-fire/ https://bangordailynews.com/2020/07/29/news/a-scene-from-hel... (I need a better link, but basically the cars with hazardous material did not leak, and the fire was from lumber.) Surprise surprise, Lumber is actually more dangerous than LNG! Because none of that would have happened with LNG. With LNG it all dissipates very fast.
  - pietor 6y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viareggio_train_derailment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viareggio_train_derailment 32 dead because of derailment of LPG transporting train. Is the hazard posed by LPG much different to LNG?
    - ars 6y ago
      Yes. Propane is heavier than air, so it sits on the ground and just burns and burns. LNG rises up into the air and is gone.
    - jjk166 6y ago
      Petroleum gas is heavier than air so it stays at ground level for an extended period of time, natural gas is lighter than air so it is dispersed quickly. The gasses in petroleum gas also have significantly lower ignition temperatures.
dghughes 6y ago
A Boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion (BLEVE) "blev-ee" is what I'd be worried about. Not for an explosion causing damage via shrapnel but from the radiant heat which can scorch things a kilometre away. Here is a PDF with seems to have the longest url I've ever seen: https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/278653/1-s2.0-S1877705813X00037/1-s2.0-S1877705813003111/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEKn%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJIMEYCIQDEJV8EBMYzYECTXvabcOovympSwc3f0fEGrFsIxyMquwIhAPbOImtQ6CDKG2TKA4KDDYlQbEBIb7V%2BjTfHt15Cf1UdKrQDCGIQAxoMMDU5MDAzNTQ2ODY1IgySjb8sld%2B%2F5iEhKqQqkQMwbChjYZZY6e7Av5EkY77NlGhqu%2Bx8SQduaJnNLt%2BZjONh1wYtiqqTOGnrc%2BGZMEzniC2DdPWujo0NrVyuPvgWYEh2FrmU9ceHbYGU4LBVHzpkzYtcqIeenZmqHpVB2QLKsqerU7qHGHoR4HbzC%2F1qnvzPw43MqkMR3iLHc6J1BuDCTCGl8On%2BEvF6OJbNbJmllV1YOPtubc3s70jCbkycx%2BJHJB8PYdDRXzZfFo%2Ffte87YXb7OCoNDA2c9vFJN4IR4o2sJzNMpAgugBb2Rze1ICxYrD5hXN2BgjFGKRp5pRCAfN7ojeDT8Fkdyls%2B%2FfOfPr3ND6XDeFpzcuWn5rXGi5Q8P1a9RIoHzwrX8bq7cfGRIYhfnZvbGm14qHQecZMKio6022knmrp6OX4O%2BXm5Oeg72ipOAdQ%2FVpWbmvFBUZvsO75fUzAV2jTrex482E2DG9KM6kmg4kJqjRWcBJMEMMm4W1dcMtPig1KbI7CeWD%2FMtK64g7920n7binDKPgAoaDQFQhE%2BLOtttXTbUos3rzDtwq3%2FBTrqASbCcRs7RzeOPWHr%2BCxU9hzOPatBJSJWyUPOp4ei7DIhqVvtIcMqv0HSfhfISU6AicJ46wKZKgS6gUVLDw0Vq8uR5YCGLWDWM%2FxzIxU6YVitTi2P%2FmRBweoYEzNUoE80Jenfc3wCFnHt8aivlk4WA6tfmMWgI3D5E5JY39RG8rLBcxY4q4X6vYrcyEi6VjKhFV5d8LmsTMZkiVVezDACzF2NL%2Fmgc4BRMEuNQJAkXcGSz6paAbvvesP3RjFPNBqn1TYYZsfdKrLq7gGr%2Btn04fs%2Fkq62prGPDcl%2F2SxPfwLimquCL%2B3YWnOjzA%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20201229T175219Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTY4RRACPTO%2F20201229%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=94cca2efe65b30ce1887374e38a49e934382ff7a7681c1e2397fcb198b4a6fdd&hash=152fd588e00aacdf0650803dca656b6df1246fdbe8fbbbc0fa7181f9f0d42daf&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S1877705813003111&tid=spdf-0d1e42f0-08b8-455f-a6dd-509eb336e09b&sid=3635dfb741da8343f179d7d2976006543df2gxrqa&type=client https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/278653/1-s2.0-S187770581...

by jjk166 6y ago

Pfhreak 6y ago

Would a crash be sufficient to cause a sudden aerosolization of the lng? It seems to me that it could, but I am not an expert. Natural gas has a smell added because it has historically exploded... > If you are comfortable with oil being transported through densely populated areas, you should be fine with this. What if I'm not comfortable moving crude but train?

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>Would a crash be sufficient to cause a sudden aerosolization of the lng? Well yes, but actually no. You can't get a freight train up to the kind of speed you need to create an "instantly dump the contents of the pressure vessel" type crash without creating a "slowly vent the contents out" type crash first. You would need to use a bomb to rupture a pressure vessel to get the kind of fuel/air mix you need for an explosion or fireball. Fuel-air explosives operate in this manner. But they are devices with countless engineering man-hours spent making them actually work and fairly precise manufacturing. Parking ye ol' Winnebago (or Penske, if you're a history buff) beside the tracks and waiting for the train to go by is not going to be a very productive approach. Look at people blowing up propane tanks on YouTube. At best they get a fireball. I'd much rather have nat-gas wafting up and away rather than crude oil, propane, or some other volatile that sits at ground level.
- Retric 6y ago
  You get real differences of scale which makes smaller models inconsistent with what happens in a train derailment. Lac-Mégantic rail disaster for example had some serious explosions from oil.
  - Arnt 6y ago
    According to the Wikipedia article there was much destruction, but... that happened when the oil flowed where it shouldn't and then burned in places where one really doesn't want it to burn. Lighter-than-air gas is crucially different. If you let that leak out it won't flow downhill through the city, it'll go straight up. Of course you can argue that gas is dangerous, but not by example of an accident where most of the flammable material flowed away (and caused harm elsewhere) instead of either burning or exploding at the site.
    - Retric 6y ago
      LNG isn’t a gas, it’s a cryogenic liquid like liquid nitrogen except flammable. If we are talking say 100+ DOT-111 tank car‘s that’s 3,450,000+ gallons which isn’t going to simply fly into the air instantly. The phase change from liquid to has takes significant energy at the scale which takes time. Again it’s a question of scale, you don’t think of say molasses as fast moving liquid but increase the scale to 2.3 million gallons and you can be talking about a 25 foot tall 35 mph wave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Molasses_Flood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Molasses_Flood
      - Arnt 6y ago
        AIUI it's not flammable. It is flammable when mixed with air in the right proportion, but if it's mixed with air it is a gas and rises straight up, rather than flow as a wave across the landscape. You can't have your cake and eat it.
        Retric 6y ago
        Again small scale vs large scale. If your talking a square foot of the stuff then it’s going to rise like your suggesting. Cover a few acres in LNG you get complex boundary layer interactions and giant swirls of natural gas mixed with air. Read up on how you can get temperature inversion layers in the atmosphere. In your model that kind of effect shouldn’t happen, but actual fluid dynamics gets complicated.
ars 6y ago
Natural gas is lighter than air. Any such aerosolization would rapidly go up into the sky. It would make a fire, but not a disaster.
Ottolay 6y ago
It could. But so could a crash of a truck or a train carrying any type of liquid/gaseous fuel (e.g. truck carrying the gas to your local gas station). The article talk about LNG requiring thicker tanks than ethylene and ethane, both of which could also 100% explode if in a wreck. I think the worry is that the volume of shipments for LNG would be much higher, and hence the probability of something happening is higher. A singular shipment of LNG would be no worse than a single shipment of car gas.
jjk166 6y ago
It's not enough to just aerosolize the LNG, it needs to mix with air in a rather narrow fuel-air ratio of 5-15% to burn. Further the flame front speed of methane in open air is only 4 mph - it won't explode, though as the flame front spreads it might kind of look like an explosion (think about what it looks like when you light a gas stove or grill). Such a fireball can potentially ignite things in close proximity, but there won't be a pressure wave that damages structures, so you can't have a situation where one tank 'exploding' causes other tanks to explode, though in a crash it's easily possible multiple tanks are damaged. Natural gas is an explosion hazard in enclosed spaces. If you walk into your house and smell gas, that's very dangerous. Note also that even if there is no explosion hazard, fire is still dangerous. If you are uncomfortable with rail transport of crude, that's a perfectly legitimate stance to take. Honestly, transporting any flammable substance (and many non-flammable ones as well) does pose risks. If you know the risks and benefits and think the former outweigh the latter, let people and especially your representatives in government know. However, society generally seems to accept rail transport of oil and similar chemicals, so outrage over the transport of a less dangerous substance seems like it would be more likely to come from a place of ignorance than rational analysis.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- uep 6y ago
  Your statements do not seem to be consistent with those in the article. > Ray Mentzer, a chemical engineer at Purdue University, spent his career working on LNG projects for Exxon Mobil. He says the specially designed containers that transport hydrocarbons have a good safety record. But he says transporting the gas through densely populated areas increases the risk if there's a leak. > "It's not flammable until it's vaporized, but it's going to be vaporized pretty darn quickly and then it's going to seek an ignition source," he says. "Believe me, it will find an ignition source pretty darn readily." I will also note that those train tracks in the town in the photos had a derailment only a few years back. I am familiar with the area and know people who live there. https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about/media/train-derails-paulsboro-nj-releasing-23000-gallons-toxic-vinyl-chloride-gas.html https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about/media/train-dera...

Retric 6y ago

The problem isn’t a train with a single car of LNG, it’s a derailment of a train carrying mostly LNG. Trains of Oil, LNG, or other flammable liquid can become a major hazard in ways that a train full of say lumber isn’t. Forty-two people were confirmed dead, with five more missing and presumed dead.[3] More than 30 buildings in the town's centre, roughly half of the downtown area, were destroyed,[2][4] and all but three of the thirty-nine remaining downtown buildings had to be demolished due to petroleum contamination of the townsite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-Mégantic_rail_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-Mégantic_rail_disaster

ars 6y ago
Exactly! And none of that would happen with LNG because natural gas is lighter than air, it would all rapidly rise into the sky and make a very pretty, and harmless, fire. And speaking of lumber: https://bangordailynews.com/2020/07/29/news/a-scene-from-hell-train-derails-on-arizona-bridge-that-collapses-catches-fire/ https://bangordailynews.com/2020/07/29/news/a-scene-from-hel... (I need a better link, but basically the cars with hazardous material did not leak, and the fire was from lumber.) Surprise surprise, Lumber is actually more dangerous than LNG! Because none of that would have happened with LNG. With LNG it all dissipates very fast.
- pietor 6y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viareggio_train_derailment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viareggio_train_derailment 32 dead because of derailment of LPG transporting train. Is the hazard posed by LPG much different to LNG?
  - ars 6y ago
    Yes. Propane is heavier than air, so it sits on the ground and just burns and burns. LNG rises up into the air and is gone.
  - jjk166 6y ago
    Petroleum gas is heavier than air so it stays at ground level for an extended period of time, natural gas is lighter than air so it is dispersed quickly. The gasses in petroleum gas also have significantly lower ignition temperatures.

dghughes 6y ago

A Boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion (BLEVE) "blev-ee" is what I'd be worried about. Not for an explosion causing damage via shrapnel but from the radiant heat which can scorch things a kilometre away. Here is a PDF with seems to have the longest url I've ever seen: https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/278653/1-s2.0-S1877705813X00037/1-s2.0-S1877705813003111/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEKn%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJIMEYCIQDEJV8EBMYzYECTXvabcOovympSwc3f0fEGrFsIxyMquwIhAPbOImtQ6CDKG2TKA4KDDYlQbEBIb7V%2BjTfHt15Cf1UdKrQDCGIQAxoMMDU5MDAzNTQ2ODY1IgySjb8sld%2B%2F5iEhKqQqkQMwbChjYZZY6e7Av5EkY77NlGhqu%2Bx8SQduaJnNLt%2BZjONh1wYtiqqTOGnrc%2BGZMEzniC2DdPWujo0NrVyuPvgWYEh2FrmU9ceHbYGU4LBVHzpkzYtcqIeenZmqHpVB2QLKsqerU7qHGHoR4HbzC%2F1qnvzPw43MqkMR3iLHc6J1BuDCTCGl8On%2BEvF6OJbNbJmllV1YOPtubc3s70jCbkycx%2BJHJB8PYdDRXzZfFo%2Ffte87YXb7OCoNDA2c9vFJN4IR4o2sJzNMpAgugBb2Rze1ICxYrD5hXN2BgjFGKRp5pRCAfN7ojeDT8Fkdyls%2B%2FfOfPr3ND6XDeFpzcuWn5rXGi5Q8P1a9RIoHzwrX8bq7cfGRIYhfnZvbGm14qHQecZMKio6022knmrp6OX4O%2BXm5Oeg72ipOAdQ%2FVpWbmvFBUZvsO75fUzAV2jTrex482E2DG9KM6kmg4kJqjRWcBJMEMMm4W1dcMtPig1KbI7CeWD%2FMtK64g7920n7binDKPgAoaDQFQhE%2BLOtttXTbUos3rzDtwq3%2FBTrqASbCcRs7RzeOPWHr%2BCxU9hzOPatBJSJWyUPOp4ei7DIhqVvtIcMqv0HSfhfISU6AicJ46wKZKgS6gUVLDw0Vq8uR5YCGLWDWM%2FxzIxU6YVitTi2P%2FmRBweoYEzNUoE80Jenfc3wCFnHt8aivlk4WA6tfmMWgI3D5E5JY39RG8rLBcxY4q4X6vYrcyEi6VjKhFV5d8LmsTMZkiVVezDACzF2NL%2Fmgc4BRMEuNQJAkXcGSz6paAbvvesP3RjFPNBqn1TYYZsfdKrLq7gGr%2Btn04fs%2Fkq62prGPDcl%2F2SxPfwLimquCL%2B3YWnOjzA%3D%3D&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20201229T175219Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTY4RRACPTO%2F20201229%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=94cca2efe65b30ce1887374e38a49e934382ff7a7681c1e2397fcb198b4a6fdd&hash=152fd588e00aacdf0650803dca656b6df1246fdbe8fbbbc0fa7181f9f0d42daf&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S1877705813003111&tid=spdf-0d1e42f0-08b8-455f-a6dd-509eb336e09b&sid=3635dfb741da8343f179d7d2976006543df2gxrqa&type=client https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/278653/1-s2.0-S187770581...