6 ms·

I'm excited about there being another browser engine. I think the general idea that "writing an engine for the web is impossible in 2020" is dangerous. It can

by berkes 6y ago

I'm excited about there being another browser engine. I think the general idea that "writing an engine for the web is impossible in 2020" is dangerous. It can only ever lead to less diversity: that idea is a sure road to a chrome-only-web, which is far worse than the dark-IE6-ages. I truly hope Flow finds its niche or sweet spot. Maybe embedded is that, maybe micro-computers. I truly hope a big name gets behind it, though. Maybe a game console or other OEM that needs a built-in browser. Maybe the Chino-West-economic war will force a large asian phone os to build their own browser. We'll see. But there really is need for another browser engine. If alone to prove that writing a new one from scratch is possible in 2020.

HeckFeck 6y ago
I'm also holding hopes that something will rise from the ashes of the Servo codebase. It's hateful to see something with promise go to waste.
- bobthebuilders 6y ago
  Iirc the Linux Foundation picked it up.
  - HeckFeck 6y ago
    I just imagined an alternate reality, where the kernel came packaged with its own deeply-integrated 'suggested' browser. Linux had become everything it set out to destroy.
    - skinkestek 6y ago
      I might be wrong (I've only used Linux since 2001) but I never felt Linus or Linux set out to destroy something but rather first to try out what was possible and later to enable more and more.
      - HeckFeck 6y ago
        Of course! Linux is free to anyone, even Steve Ballmer if he has a change of heart. My comment was very much intended as tongue-in-cheek.
    - berkes 6y ago
      That brings "magnificent monolith" to an entire new level: a kernel with built-in javascript interpreter, DOM, HTML and CSS renderer. Sounds a bit like what Mozilla had in mind with their mobile OS back in the days.
- sam_bristow 6y ago
  A decent amount of the servo work ended up Firefox proper already. They merged in the CSS work (stylo) a while back and Webrender is now the default 2d engine.
giancarlostoro 6y ago
I don't think it's impossible, I think it's a lot of work though. Especially for one person, it would take the right person. I could see someone like Walter Bright doing it (he created D originally by himself and other compilers). I don't think I have the energy to do the entire DOM myself, and implement a JS engine, and CSS, and so on... Plus all the nuance of image rendering (even if you use third party libraries for this, you gotta figure out which ones to use and ensure you're doing so correctly and securely).
- adrianN 6y ago
  I think web standards evolve faster than a single person can implement them.
  - giancarlostoro 6y ago
    They are slow to be adopted though, the fact we still got things like Babel is tribute to this simple fact.
- marmaduke 6y ago
  > the energy to do the entire Set a lower standard though? HN is arguably a good website with just enough of each tech and high signal to noise ratio. How difficult to make it work in a new browser? Who cares if it renders the Facebook wall misaligned.
  - wejick 6y ago
    OOT: it has been years I since the last time I read/hear about Facebook wall
lucideer 6y ago
> I think the general idea that "writing an engine for the web is impossible in 2020" is dangerous. I'm not sure what you mean by this sentence. Are you saying it would be dangerous if writing a new engine in 2020 were impossible (agree) or are you saying that making such a statement is dangerous (hard disagree). Making a new engine in 2020 is hard. Making a new engine that becomes a sustainable, maintainable project in the medium term MAY BE impossible (Flow looks amazing but I imagine funding and maintaining it long-term will be an immense challenge). Discussing this fact, and the reasons that it is so challenging is important if we hope to avoid the dangers of a monoculture.
- geogra4 6y ago
  Microsoft, with the almost unlimited $$ they have, decided against their own browser engine. That made quite a statement.
  - badsectoracula 6y ago
    The statement being nothing more than Microsoft didn't want to spend $$ on their own browser engine. Just because Microsoft has a ton of money it doesn't mean that every project they work on and every team in the company have unlimited budget. And even if that was the case for their browser engine team, the project might stop for other reasons too - e.g. internal politics, changes in focus/goals, etc. It isn't like Microsoft (or any big company really) doesn't drop projects that people wouldn't expect them to drop.
    - postalrat 6y ago
      How about Apple? They have their own but either aren't interested or not capable of keeping up with chrome.
      - SahAssar 6y ago
        They have forced every iOS/iPadOS user to use their engine, and therefore force all web developers to adapt to them. They aren't interested in keeping up because they don't gain anything from it and they don't loose a lot by lagging behind. Apple is more than capable to implement stuff like push notifications but that would compete with the app store where they make money and by disallowing others from bringing a browser to iOS they don't need to.
hrjet 6y ago
> But there really is need for another browser engine. If alone to prove that writing a new one from scratch is possible in 2020. We have been developing one here [1]. It's a long way to go, but hey, it's open source! And we had found it working fine on a RaPi 2 couple of years back. [1] https://gngr.info https://gngr.info
- berkes 6y ago
  I presume that when you keep focusing on HTML and CSS, it can find a good niche, while being a achievable target. Rendering of HTML and CSS is a tough task, but can be very performant and doable without any APIs and JS/ECMA. Thanks for the work. Interesting project!

by berkes 6y ago

HeckFeck 6y ago

I'm also holding hopes that something will rise from the ashes of the Servo codebase. It's hateful to see something with promise go to waste.

bobthebuilders 6y ago
Iirc the Linux Foundation picked it up.
- HeckFeck 6y ago
  I just imagined an alternate reality, where the kernel came packaged with its own deeply-integrated 'suggested' browser. Linux had become everything it set out to destroy.
  - skinkestek 6y ago
    I might be wrong (I've only used Linux since 2001) but I never felt Linus or Linux set out to destroy something but rather first to try out what was possible and later to enable more and more.
    - HeckFeck 6y ago
      Of course! Linux is free to anyone, even Steve Ballmer if he has a change of heart. My comment was very much intended as tongue-in-cheek.
  - berkes 6y ago
    That brings "magnificent monolith" to an entire new level: a kernel with built-in javascript interpreter, DOM, HTML and CSS renderer. Sounds a bit like what Mozilla had in mind with their mobile OS back in the days.
sam_bristow 6y ago
A decent amount of the servo work ended up Firefox proper already. They merged in the CSS work (stylo) a while back and Webrender is now the default 2d engine.

giancarlostoro 6y ago

I don't think it's impossible, I think it's a lot of work though. Especially for one person, it would take the right person. I could see someone like Walter Bright doing it (he created D originally by himself and other compilers). I don't think I have the energy to do the entire DOM myself, and implement a JS engine, and CSS, and so on... Plus all the nuance of image rendering (even if you use third party libraries for this, you gotta figure out which ones to use and ensure you're doing so correctly and securely).

adrianN 6y ago
I think web standards evolve faster than a single person can implement them.
- giancarlostoro 6y ago
  They are slow to be adopted though, the fact we still got things like Babel is tribute to this simple fact.
marmaduke 6y ago
> the energy to do the entire Set a lower standard though? HN is arguably a good website with just enough of each tech and high signal to noise ratio. How difficult to make it work in a new browser? Who cares if it renders the Facebook wall misaligned.
- wejick 6y ago
  OOT: it has been years I since the last time I read/hear about Facebook wall

lucideer 6y ago

> I think the general idea that "writing an engine for the web is impossible in 2020" is dangerous. I'm not sure what you mean by this sentence. Are you saying it would be dangerous if writing a new engine in 2020 were impossible (agree) or are you saying that making such a statement is dangerous (hard disagree). Making a new engine in 2020 is hard. Making a new engine that becomes a sustainable, maintainable project in the medium term MAY BE impossible (Flow looks amazing but I imagine funding and maintaining it long-term will be an immense challenge). Discussing this fact, and the reasons that it is so challenging is important if we hope to avoid the dangers of a monoculture.

geogra4 6y ago
Microsoft, with the almost unlimited $$ they have, decided against their own browser engine. That made quite a statement.
- badsectoracula 6y ago
  The statement being nothing more than Microsoft didn't want to spend $$ on their own browser engine. Just because Microsoft has a ton of money it doesn't mean that every project they work on and every team in the company have unlimited budget. And even if that was the case for their browser engine team, the project might stop for other reasons too - e.g. internal politics, changes in focus/goals, etc. It isn't like Microsoft (or any big company really) doesn't drop projects that people wouldn't expect them to drop.
  - postalrat 6y ago
    How about Apple? They have their own but either aren't interested or not capable of keeping up with chrome.
    - SahAssar 6y ago
      They have forced every iOS/iPadOS user to use their engine, and therefore force all web developers to adapt to them. They aren't interested in keeping up because they don't gain anything from it and they don't loose a lot by lagging behind. Apple is more than capable to implement stuff like push notifications but that would compete with the app store where they make money and by disallowing others from bringing a browser to iOS they don't need to.

hrjet 6y ago

> But there really is need for another browser engine. If alone to prove that writing a new one from scratch is possible in 2020. We have been developing one here [1]. It's a long way to go, but hey, it's open source! And we had found it working fine on a RaPi 2 couple of years back. [1] https://gngr.info https://gngr.info

berkes 6y ago
I presume that when you keep focusing on HTML and CSS, it can find a good niche, while being a achievable target. Rendering of HTML and CSS is a tough task, but can be very performant and doable without any APIs and JS/ECMA. Thanks for the work. Interesting project!