5 ms·

> All this wonderfulness depended on the ability to start over and throw away the legacy cruft we had built up. And that is, unfortunately, pretty much impossib

> All this wonderfulness depended on the ability to start over and throw away the legacy cruft we had built up. And that is, unfortunately, pretty much impossible. Even if IPv6 hits 99% penetration, that doesn't mean we'll be rid of IPv4. This bout of pessimism seems unfounded in the article. Of course most services and networks will get rid of v4 when a sufficiently high percentage of users and devices have moved, just like they do with other protocols. It won't disappear off the face of the earth, just like other old protocols didn't, you'll just find that you can't use it on most networks.

konjin 6y ago
When? IPv6 has been around since before I have coherent memories and IPv4 will be around until my children form theirs at the very least.
- gogopuppygogo 6y ago
  Exactly. Technically ipv6 is designed to solve a real problem. Except the people who are charged with using/delivering service with IP addresses hate it with a passion. The majority of network folks I have interacted with joke about it. IPv6 is a terrible solution because ipv4 is so much easier for people to write down, remember, and actually use. An ipv6 address is more like a MAC address in that it exists and it’s supposed to be unique but no one is reciting their MAC address every day. Phone numbers, mailing addresses, and email addresses are all memorable. IPv6 is not and will not succeed as a result. Yes, I’m acutely aware it’s being forced on the industry because ipv4 is running out and there is no other option. However, the price of ipv4 blocks shows how badly people don’t want to switch to this miserable standard.
  - iam-TJ 6y ago
    The same was said about IP (IPv4). The original solution was a static hostname<>IP address table, "hosts.txt", centrally administered, that all hosts copied via FTP until that became too large. That led to the development of the Domain Name System (DNS) in 1983 [0]. DNS AAAA records do for IPv6 what A records do for IPv4. PTR records (for reverse look-ups) work for both. For zero configuration (no DNS server) we have multicast DNS (mDNS) [1]. [0] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc882.html https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc882.html [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6762.html https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6762.html
  - cranekam 6y ago
    Who in their right mind is memorising IPv4 addresses, at least beyond the IP range used on their home network? Nobody remembers MAC addresses because nobody needs to: IP and the upper layers hide that. If you don't want to adopt IPv6 because it would make remembering your IP addresses harder I'd say you have much more pressing issues to resolve first. I'd also argue that many people, me included, have simply stopped remembering phone numbers (and maybe addresses) now. I have some (my parents', etc) committed to long-term memory but there is no way I need or even try to remember new phone numbers I come across. My contacts list does it for me. IPv6 adoption is slow because a) it hasn't been essential so far, b) it's weird and different to IPv4 and if using it isn't essential, why bother? It's the technical equivalent to rewriting all your recipes from imperial to metric units, despite owning scales and measuring tools that still do both. (Note: I am a nerd and like playing with this stuff so I am mostly v6 where possible.)
    - CarelessExpert 6y ago
      > Who in their right mind is memorising IPv4 addresses, at least beyond the IP range used on their home network? Hell, I don't even remember them on my home network. I have a server running a dozen VMs and I'll be damned if I can remember the IPs for all those services. DNS exists for a reason. Moreover, the only time I might be working with those raw IPs is with services using static IPs. But in that case my IPv6 addresses aren't actually that much more complicated. On the v4 side I might have: 192.168.1.122 And on the IPv6 side (where I have a /48 allocated) I might have: 2600:ABCD:XYZW::11
      - cranekam 6y ago
        Yes, it's all easy. I have a /64 assigned to my LAN, an /80 assigned to each of my hosts for allocating IPs to containers, etc. I have DNS and a text file listing which blocks I have allocated out of the /48 my ISP gives me. It's not hard or substantially different to IPv4.
  - fulafel 6y ago
    > IPv6 is a terrible solution because ipv4 is so much easier for people to write down I'm not sure if you're serious, but in case you are, I'd ask you to consider the percentage of people using IP whose use cases involve writing down IP addresses.
    - oarsinsync 6y ago
      Just us network administrators, who administer the networks that your IPs run on. It’s difficult to convince someone to make their own job harder, especially when nobody is actually asking them to, either.
      - fulafel 6y ago
        If you are administering networks by writing down ip addresses, it sounds like an old habit that maybe survived this long because of conveniently short addresses, but hardly essential. (Yes I have done it too back in the day, though we had this nifty tech called copy & paste...)
rzwitserloot 6y ago
The article does cover it, but a bit later: It talks about e.g. WiFi lightbulbs and the like, still running on IPv4, and covers Postel's Law pretty well, considering it not 'a good idea' so much as 'you may not like the law of gravity, but the law does not care'. Postel's law is not a principle you should apply. Postel's law is a thing that will be done to you, regardless of what you think of Postel's Law. In other words, some numbnut with an old wifi lightbulb is going to write some cruft to attempt to make their IPv6 only router somehow route their stuff to IPv4. Whichever clowny moron sells a router that actually enables this numbnut wins the fight, because said numbnut will buy the clown's product. I'm just rephrasing and repeating that article as I understand it. Point is: Yes, the bout of pessimism is covered. And covered again, and in a better way, in the followup article linked at the very end: It's the application of the notion that Postel's Law is a force of nature and not an applied principle.
- fulafel 6y ago
  At some point the v4 compatibility feature is not going to be attractive to significant nr of people. Just like parallel ports in PCs ceased to be. So yes there's a force favouring legacy support, but it's only so strong, and prone to weakening. The transition will take a while because of old devices, I agree with that. But still doesn't change the prospect that v4 will go away eventually.

konjin 6y ago

When? IPv6 has been around since before I have coherent memories and IPv4 will be around until my children form theirs at the very least.

gogopuppygogo 6y ago
Exactly. Technically ipv6 is designed to solve a real problem. Except the people who are charged with using/delivering service with IP addresses hate it with a passion. The majority of network folks I have interacted with joke about it. IPv6 is a terrible solution because ipv4 is so much easier for people to write down, remember, and actually use. An ipv6 address is more like a MAC address in that it exists and it’s supposed to be unique but no one is reciting their MAC address every day. Phone numbers, mailing addresses, and email addresses are all memorable. IPv6 is not and will not succeed as a result. Yes, I’m acutely aware it’s being forced on the industry because ipv4 is running out and there is no other option. However, the price of ipv4 blocks shows how badly people don’t want to switch to this miserable standard.
- iam-TJ 6y ago
  The same was said about IP (IPv4). The original solution was a static hostname<>IP address table, "hosts.txt", centrally administered, that all hosts copied via FTP until that became too large. That led to the development of the Domain Name System (DNS) in 1983 [0]. DNS AAAA records do for IPv6 what A records do for IPv4. PTR records (for reverse look-ups) work for both. For zero configuration (no DNS server) we have multicast DNS (mDNS) [1]. [0] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc882.html https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc882.html [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6762.html https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6762.html
- cranekam 6y ago
  Who in their right mind is memorising IPv4 addresses, at least beyond the IP range used on their home network? Nobody remembers MAC addresses because nobody needs to: IP and the upper layers hide that. If you don't want to adopt IPv6 because it would make remembering your IP addresses harder I'd say you have much more pressing issues to resolve first. I'd also argue that many people, me included, have simply stopped remembering phone numbers (and maybe addresses) now. I have some (my parents', etc) committed to long-term memory but there is no way I need or even try to remember new phone numbers I come across. My contacts list does it for me. IPv6 adoption is slow because a) it hasn't been essential so far, b) it's weird and different to IPv4 and if using it isn't essential, why bother? It's the technical equivalent to rewriting all your recipes from imperial to metric units, despite owning scales and measuring tools that still do both. (Note: I am a nerd and like playing with this stuff so I am mostly v6 where possible.)
  - CarelessExpert 6y ago
    > Who in their right mind is memorising IPv4 addresses, at least beyond the IP range used on their home network? Hell, I don't even remember them on my home network. I have a server running a dozen VMs and I'll be damned if I can remember the IPs for all those services. DNS exists for a reason. Moreover, the only time I might be working with those raw IPs is with services using static IPs. But in that case my IPv6 addresses aren't actually that much more complicated. On the v4 side I might have: 192.168.1.122 And on the IPv6 side (where I have a /48 allocated) I might have: 2600:ABCD:XYZW::11
    - cranekam 6y ago
      Yes, it's all easy. I have a /64 assigned to my LAN, an /80 assigned to each of my hosts for allocating IPs to containers, etc. I have DNS and a text file listing which blocks I have allocated out of the /48 my ISP gives me. It's not hard or substantially different to IPv4.
- fulafel 6y ago
  > IPv6 is a terrible solution because ipv4 is so much easier for people to write down I'm not sure if you're serious, but in case you are, I'd ask you to consider the percentage of people using IP whose use cases involve writing down IP addresses.
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    Just us network administrators, who administer the networks that your IPs run on. It’s difficult to convince someone to make their own job harder, especially when nobody is actually asking them to, either.
    - fulafel 6y ago
      If you are administering networks by writing down ip addresses, it sounds like an old habit that maybe survived this long because of conveniently short addresses, but hardly essential. (Yes I have done it too back in the day, though we had this nifty tech called copy & paste...)

rzwitserloot 6y ago

The article does cover it, but a bit later: It talks about e.g. WiFi lightbulbs and the like, still running on IPv4, and covers Postel's Law pretty well, considering it not 'a good idea' so much as 'you may not like the law of gravity, but the law does not care'. Postel's law is not a principle you should apply. Postel's law is a thing that will be done to you, regardless of what you think of Postel's Law. In other words, some numbnut with an old wifi lightbulb is going to write some cruft to attempt to make their IPv6 only router somehow route their stuff to IPv4. Whichever clowny moron sells a router that actually enables this numbnut wins the fight, because said numbnut will buy the clown's product. I'm just rephrasing and repeating that article as I understand it. Point is: Yes, the bout of pessimism is covered. And covered again, and in a better way, in the followup article linked at the very end: It's the application of the notion that Postel's Law is a force of nature and not an applied principle.

fulafel 6y ago
At some point the v4 compatibility feature is not going to be attractive to significant nr of people. Just like parallel ports in PCs ceased to be. So yes there's a force favouring legacy support, but it's only so strong, and prone to weakening. The transition will take a while because of old devices, I agree with that. But still doesn't change the prospect that v4 will go away eventually.