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Premium-feeling laptops that aren't Apple machines. Yes yes, I get the economical barriers. I'm past caring. It is so incredibly frustrating to look outside th

Premium-feeling laptops that aren't Apple machines. Yes yes, I get the economical barriers. I'm past caring. It is so incredibly frustrating to look outside the Apple ecosystem and feel like the entire PC industry is content to sell the bare minimum of quality (outside of Gamer hardware, which looks obscene - but I get that it's subjective). It's a horrible business idea on the numbers and nobody would do this, but if some lunatic out there wants to blow the money, build and sell a laptop at whatever price point you want that: - Supports CoreBoot - Isn't a rebranded Clevo shell and has close enough fit and finish to a recent MacBook. Read: No. Plastic. Case. - If there is ever the phrase "panel lottery" uttered about your machine, you've messed up. - No logos, or throw them on the underside like Purism. - The screen has to be relatively close to the MacBook in brightness + viewing angles. Give me an option for a glossy screen. - Trackpad must be glass. You won't get close to the MBP trackpad on the first or second pass, but try. - Go for some crazier vertical integration ala the M1. I don't care if it blocks upgrading certain parts, since I consider the industry to move fast enough that I won't _want_ the machine anymore in 4-5 years. - There is no need for touch of any kind, nor the ability to flip the screen or anything. Just make a damn laptop. - Edit: high quality boutique feeling support. I don't need an Apple Store equivalent, but at least invest in this. I get why Apple can do all of the above. I would pay literally twice what I pay Apple for a competing product. Currently, every laptop that I try feels like stepping back a few years. The upcoming Purism Librem 14, in terms of images, feels like it could _feel_ close - but I'm not impressed with their other products so I'll believe it when I see it. I remain shocked that System76 hasn't bothered with this. End my rant about this industry, I guess.

acd 6y ago
If Lenovo would ship Coreboot Linux laptops that would fit the bill as premium and good laptop with open boot loader.
- Klonoar 6y ago
  This comes close, but I don't find the build to be as nice as a MacBook, and trackpad is the same issue. I do often look at a ThinkPad and wonder, though.
  - crooked-v 6y ago
    I looked through ThinkPads in order to find standard recommended laptop selections for a previous job, and it was really striking (a) how many slightly different fiddly model selections there were with tiny differences that should have been an options picker rather than different product entries, and (b) how many of them still had 1080p-only screens in the year 2020. Like, come on, seriously?
    - Klonoar 6y ago
      This is part of what I take issue with, yeah. I'm just past the point in my life where I want to itemize this stuff. Take my money and give me the best package possible. I've got better things to do with my time. The entire buying experience also feels very sales-like - which, yes, it's absolutely a sales process - but the buying experience with Apple is leagues better and feels more human. This isn't even hardware, but website UI/UX... why on earth is it like this in 2020? This is much easier to solve than hardware chain issues.
    - jstimpfle 6y ago
      I just bought a T495s with Ryzen. It's a 14" 1080p. For my desktop PC, I use a 27" 4K monitor. I can tell you I love the 4K and would never go back. For the laptop though, the 1080p resolution is perfectly fine, plus it saves a lot of battery life compared to 4K.
  - jitl 6y ago
    Microsoft and Lenovo both offer full-metal laptops with good rigidity and build quality. The Surface Book is weird but feels great in-hand. Trackpad is quite good, but, the whole thing is a giant gimmick. Lenovo X1 line has an all-metal option. I haven’t handled the 2019 version but previous iterations were quite nice - in a totally un-Apple-like way. Unfortunately, there’s no retailer out there that I trust to actually display these high-end laptops so you can go actually get a feel for them. The Microsoft Stores was the best bet, but those are all closing. I shopped for an all-metal laptop 2 years ago after leaving Airbnb and was wholly disappointed with this $600-$1400 lineup at BestBuy. I ended up getting a Huawei Matebook Pro X (sic) from the Microsoft Store in San Francisco. I put Linux on it, but were I to do it again I’d just spend 2x more on an actual MacBook.
- exged 6y ago
  Ehh, not really. I've used both Macs (old 15" rMBP, 12" Macbook, M1 Macbook Air) and Thinkpads (T450s, X1C G7, T14 AMD) and Lenovo just frequently drops the ball on things like display, speakers, touchpad and battery life. Apple has also made some poor decisions in various areas in the past like poor thermals, power-sucking dGPUs, and of course the butterfly keyboard. The M1 Macbook is very nearly perfect though, and I don't know how any of the PC vendors are going to top it.
NewLogic 6y ago
The XPS 15 is basically that laptop and is only hamstrung by dell being slow to move to Ryzen 4000 mobile chips. Mobile intel runs hot and slow.
- Klonoar 6y ago
  I'm sure some people like the XPS 15, but having tried it, I don't believe that it fits here - and honestly, I've not found _any_ Dell hardware to have fit and finish remotely close to a MacBook.
  - izacus 6y ago
    Then you have very strange standards, the XPS 13 I have at home can easily compete with 13" MBP and outshines it in several areas. Especially having a sturdy build quality and a good keyboard.
    - Klonoar 6y ago
      The latest MBPs have the same, and outperform it. This isn't really debatable at the moment.
      - izacus 6y ago
        Huh, it's not? Why exactly?
      - TwoBit 6y ago
        After Apple's ongoing keyboard debacle and that stupid strip, I don't see how you have much credibility.
        Klonoar 6y ago
        What? It's no longer "ongoing", as it was fixed and has been for some time. This is noted elsewhere in this thread, too. You can't try to claim someone has no credibility then wade in with incorrect facts. The TouchBar is bad and I wish they'd remove it, yeah.
drzaiusapelord 6y ago
I guess you can't out Apple apple. Apple has the culture and cultural force to sell you a laptop with ports you don't like or a weird keyboard. Part of buying an Apple product is being on a certain cutting design edge and being someone's beta tester. Its not a sharp edge and its a very mature beta, but there's a sort of agreement you sign your name to when you buy a Mac. In the PC world, the consumer space is dominated by anti-design nerdy guys who demand every port imaginable, and for good reason, and the business end is similar with their own legacy demands. Big changes in any way, be it features or lack-of are frowned upon and mocked (no wireless less space than a nomad -lame). No one is going to win here because no one else can have Apple's market. The incentives to win on the PC side are just too different. And even then, you can just bootcamp Windows or Linux and buy the 'real' Apple you want anyway. Honestly, its a small miracle something like Apple even exits in the tech space. Its usually a race to the bottom on half-cooked features, general cheapness, and terrible UIs. Somehow Apple broke free of that and never looked back.
- Klonoar 6y ago
  > and being someone's beta tester. Its not a sharp edge and its a very mature beta, but there's a sort of agreement you sign your name to when you buy a Mac. Complaints that you commonly see about Apple products are, I find, similar to reading complaints when you're apartment shopping: those who complain have reason to do so, and those with good experiences don't necessarily feel the need to write about them. For instance: those who experienced botched Catalina upgrades that caused Mail.app issues? I never experienced that, and I've two significantly sized accounts attached. In fact I upgraded my last machine from High Sierra to Catalina with no issues at all. The "beta" parts of macOS that people call out are just never things I've fought against - and I run a fairly custom-ish setup to boot. On that same note, I could throw a rock and find a KDE user who complains about KMail having issues... but you won't find many KMail users saying "yeah it just works and life is great". Software is complex. I wouldn't call macOS "beta" and by the same token I'm not going to label other OS/DE combos that either. (They also fixed the keyboard, so I'm over that complaint. Would I prefer the ThinkPad keyboard? Absolutely. But the new one works fine and fits the design aesthetic of the device.) tl;dr: The only "agreement" I find myself signing is that the thing looks and feels, and functions, like a premium product. I find myself endlessly frustrated that if I go car shopping for a premium item, I have different options... yet I just don't feel like I have this with computers. > No one is going to win here because no one else can have Apple's market. The incentives to win on the PC side are just too different. This is exactly why I'm saying that my ideal product wouldn't compete with the PC market. I fully recognize that's a losing battle.
x0x0 6y ago
I share this surprise. My guess is that, at this point, Apple has absorbed the vast majority of people who care about these things. And that is causing the other manufacturers not to care, because they have already lost the audience who does...
- wyattpeak 6y ago
  I wouldn't think so. I reckon they've probably absorbed the vast majority of non-gamers and people who don't need Windows for work, but neither of those two groups is small.
gfxgirl 6y ago
No logo? So the Apple logo is ok? My 2017 14" 1060 Razer seemed exactly like a black Macbook Pro (which I also owned at the same time). Metal case, Razer logo where the Apple logo was. HD-DPI display.
- Klonoar 6y ago
  If I could kill the Apple logo, I would. :)
  - kjaftaedi 6y ago
    Yes, I think people would agree, but suggesting companies shouldn't market their products is silly. It's like adding 'I want a million dollars' to your list.
    - Klonoar 6y ago
      A version of your comment included the line "it's an unrealistic demand". Not sure if it's caching on HN or whatever, but to that point: so is, clearly, my entire list. If I'm saying I'll pay whatever price, though, you bet I'm putting that on there. ;P Edit: and to be fair, I'd take a logo that isn't an eyesore - the other commenter on this thread used some odd language for it, but I consider the Razer logo to be an eyesore. Bright green is not something I want on my laptop. The Apple logo, as annoying as it might be, at least doesn't look like someone took a crayon and scribbled on the back of the machine.
    - gfxgirl 6y ago
      I'm not so sure that's true though. Me, I don't buy any clothing that has a visible logo on it. I won't pay to advertise for someone. I know others show off brand logos for various reasons. For laptops I don't have much choice except to put a sticker over the logo.
- tested23 6y ago
  The razer logo looks like a trampstamp
- 6y ago
Jemaclus 6y ago
Related to this, I'm kind of shocked that there isn't a strong third option for OSes. We've got Windows and MacOS, sure, but the nix ecosystem is so fragmented and not as well supported as the other two that it's hard to justify switching. Like you pointed out, Mac feels premium because of the software/hardware tight coupling, and it just works. Windows is the same, but for reasons can feel less polished than MacOS. I turned an old Macbook into a Linux box, and it's fine*. It does what I need it to do, but it doesn't feel premium at all. I just wish I had really slick, solid, premium-feeling alternatives. It seems to me that Microsoft or Facebook or SOMEONE with a bajillion dollars could afford to do this and really make a dent in the space and give us more alternatives. I guess the demand just isn't there. Very sad.
- TwoBit 6y ago
  > shocked that there isn't a strong third option for OSes Why when there is no third OS that has even 1% share and all Linux combined is about 3%. And desktop Linux is bad.
  - worik 6y ago
    Why is desktop Linux bad? I use MacOS (whatever it is called this week) Mint and LXDE Love Mint (typing on it) The Apple OS has a lot of rough corners (e.g. (max/min)imising windows is a world of pain) LXDE is acceptable because it is on my PI and I do not use the desktop much I have not used Windows desktop for about a decade, has it really gotten that much better? I am really happy with desktop Linux
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      > Why is desktop Linux bad? There are a huge range of reasons. There's no consistency, everything changes every 2 years, the documentation is awful when it exists at all, if software is outside your distro's package repo it's a bitch to install, there are too many different distros, the community is full of pricks, fragmentation is a time-honored pastime, complexity is fetishized... fuck sound still didn't work consistently on the last Linux based media center I built. A cursory search of the internet will turn up innumerable reasons Linux Desktop is bad. Which isn't to say that MacOS and Windows aren't bad (and getting worse), but they're still a damned sight better.
academia_hack 6y ago
I've really liked Gigabyte's gaming laptops (aero) for this reason. They've got premium build quality and excellent specs but don't look like a Mardi Gras float. They're also very light and have long battery life for the specs. Only downside is the price and mail-only support really.
monocasa 6y ago
The closest thing I've found to what you're asking for is the Huawei Matebook Pro that I rock. Everything I like about Macbooks, plus USB-A, plus 3000x2000 screen.
lmm 6y ago
I found the Surface Book had a wonderful premium feel; I went into the shop with a list of specs in mind, and Microsoft was the last manufacturer I'd imagine going with, but it's a powerful machine and also just a beautiful object. Metal case, relatively subtle/classy logo, absolutely beautiful screen, nothing else was compromised for the sake of touch, clean baseline first-party OS. If you really want a premium feel from anyone-but-Apple and are willing to pay more-than-Apple prices for it, I'd very much recommend it.
- spurgu 6y ago
  Does it run Linux properly? googling Answer seems to be maybe: https://www.most-useful.com/ubuntu-20-04-linux-on-surface-pro-4-working-pretty-well.html https://www.most-useful.com/ubuntu-20-04-linux-on-surface-pr... https://old.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/top/?sort=top&t=year https://old.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/top/?sort=top&t=year TBH I hadn't really considered Surface's before due to them being Microsoft devices.
  - makuto 6y ago
    I have a Surface Pro 2 running with the linux-surface kernel [0]. It feels like it has some rough edges - you have to decide between having pen support or having touch screen support, and suspend can be unreliable. These issues may be fixed now. Also, I encrypted my Windows partition, and now it requires the key each time to boot up, so I recommend against doing that. Overall, I do agree that the hardware feels quite nice, and besides those issues I listed, the Linux experience is quite good. I was very happy to not be forced to use Windows. [0] https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface
  - the__alchemist 6y ago
    You probably need a special Kernal. I got it running with Manjaro. I ditched that, and went back to Windows due to it not having a suitable writing app like OneNote. I found a few apps, but they weren't very good, and the pen had input lag. Also ran into issues with the OSK not showing at the right times. These limitations seem small, but are enough to degrade the experience.
TwoBit 6y ago
I have a MacBook Pro and a Lenovo Yoga and while other PC laptops I've had over 15 years were clearly worse than the Apple, the Yoga feels on par hardware-wise. What could I be missing? My only complaint is that the WiFi driver for it was bad (with lots of reports).
reitzensteinm 6y ago
My Zenbook Pro didn't seem all that different to my 16" Macbook Pro which it clones. The MacBook Pro has cooling issues, an awful keyboard and feels flimsy. The Zenbook had only a pseudo 4k display, a massive charger and a large bezel, although I believe that's gone on newer models. I wouldn't call one premium and the other not. They were both kind of underwhelming.
- gjsman-1000 6y ago
  The M1 Macs (and the Intel generation before it) no longer use Butterfly keyboards, but instead use the earlier "Magic Keyboard" which was well-loved. And the M1 Macs have, let's just say, better thermal management than most laptops now.
  - reitzensteinm 6y ago
    Yeah, it's a 2020. It's pretty good considering the key travel limitations, but absolutely awful compared to other laptops I've used that just have more space. Plus the arrow keys... M1 does shake things up somewhat, and will make an even larger difference at the high end.
thebrain 6y ago
I'm not sure about the CoreBoot requirement but I've been pretty impressed by my wife's Microsoft Surface laptop. It's the closest thing to a MacBook you can get.
oliv__ 6y ago
I agree with this so much. I used to think Apple's products were the best and were so joyful to use. I still go back to try the newest macs with the old foolish expectations and walk out disappointed every time. I've tried PCs, they just aren't on the same level as Apple's hardware and I hate Windows. I've seen some cool customizations of Linux but would really rather not have to spend that time myself to get to a place where I'm productive. I want something that 90% "just works", but that's also pleasing to use. I really wish there was a solid third option, new tech is so cool yet the options available today seem so boring!
devwastaken 6y ago
The actual aluminum casing, screen, keyboard, trackpad - all possible. But designing the motherboard, lithium batteries, and digital charger is well outside the reach of most creators.
newsbinator 6y ago
> I would pay literally twice what I pay Apple for a competing product. In what way is Apple so bad that you would pay twice as much (thousands of dollars more) for a competing product?
- Klonoar 6y ago
  Where on earth did you read that I said Apple was _bad_? My issue is with everyone else in the industry not pulling their weight. I'm annoyed with having to give my money to one of the richest companies on the planet, solely because nobody else will actually compete. I run Apple hardware daily; it's clear that I'm fine with them as a product, especially if I want it cloned. Basically: I will pay a premium for an Apple-esque open laptop.
rilut 6y ago
Razer Blade Stealth 13 & Razer Book 13 fill this gap I use Stealth 13 and impressed with its metal body and touchpad, also no shiny RGB logo
- pfranz 6y ago
  I have notes from when I was researching around 2018. I had the Razer Blade Stealth in the running, but I was reading about support and longevity issues with them. Maybe they've been better recently? It's difficult to build a track record of longevity. I've had stellar longevity out of Apple hardware. I'm usually able to use it for a handful of years and sell it on ebay to put a good chunk towards something new. I have noticed certain models/runs have specific issues, laptop keyboards are probably the most recent and obvious, but for the most part you know what you're getting. Screen lamination problems or pinched monitor cable being a few others. When looking at alternatives saving only around 20% on the cost made it difficult when not being confident about longevity or resale. Sadly, other aspects weren't appreciably better (soldered on RAM, camera quality, performance, battery).
  - ValentineC 6y ago
    > I had the Razer Blade Stealth in the running, but I was reading about support and longevity issues with them. Maybe they've been better recently? It's difficult to build a track record of longevity. Razer still has hilariously bad product management. One of their newest (non-hardware) launches is Razer Pay, a QR payment and Visa prepaid solution for Southeast Asia. It's been around since mid-2018, but they've just launched their prepaid card in Singapore. The app and backend quality is below average for a large company like Razer (think: multiple incidents of double charging, and authorisation charges not being refunded), and has the app's UI is ugly.
onecommentman 6y ago
When I was looking around a few months ago, the revitalized VAIO looked like it might be the ticket https://us.vaio.com/ https://us.vaio.com/ Made in Japan and oodles of legacy ports...
AtlasBarfed 6y ago
please add: HDMI 2.0+
jiggawatts 6y ago
I've had a very similar rant yearly for over a decade. I used to do it on Slashdot before YC News was a thing. You're not the only one, yet I feel this won't ever change. Nobody in the entire laptop industry cares or even knows about our complaints. There seems to be practically zero overlap between the professionals that use laptops -- such as software developers -- and the hardware engineers that design the laptops. As you've alluded, it's an insular industry with mostly foreign players such as Clevo in Taiwan. The market exists though. I suspect it would be profitable too! I regularly buy laptops for about AUD $5,000-$6,000, including the Clevo laptop I'm using now for work. My requirements are much more mundane than yours, but will similarly never be met: - Alternative keyboard layouts: Why must a $6K laptop for professionals (or gamers!) do idiotic things such as compress the arrow keys or hide the Ins/Del/PgUp/PgDn keys? Why can't I choose the keyboard layout? - Wider keyboards: I can't stand "gapless" keyboards that make touch typing the rarely used keys difficult. Most laptops reuse the 13-inch model's keyboard on all larger sizes, which wastes enormous amounts of real estate. (My current laptop is wider than my full-size 101-key keyboard, not including the number pad.) - Decent webcams and microphones: Is there some law that only mobile phones and tablets can have decent cameras? - Narrow-bezel screens: This is starting to very very slowly become the norm, but is still hit and miss. - Lightweight power supplies: Only Apple seems to have heard about Gallium Nitride power electronics, everyone else ships their more powerful laptop models with a power supply that is the size and weight of a brick. (My current laptop's brick is 1.9 kg!!!) - Integrated 5G: I'd like to have Internet connectivity without tethering, just like an iPad. If anyone from Dell ever reads YC News: I very nearly bought the new Dell XPS 17, but then I saw the keyboard and I immediately cancelled the order: https://i.dell.com/is/image/DellContent//content/dam/global-site-design/product_images/dell_client_products/notebooks/xps_notebooks/xps_17/pdp/notebooks_xps_17_laptop_pdp_image_mod5.jpg?fmt=jpg https://i.dell.com/is/image/DellContent//content/dam/global-... Compare with a Clevo 17 inch laptop keyboard: https://accessoriesales.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/1165_CLEVO.jpg https://accessoriesales.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/1165_... They seem to have found the room for full-size up/down keys, a number pad, as well as dedicated keys for ins/del/home. I never have to press the "Fn" key in normal usage! Every few years I look at Dell's top-of-the-line laptop, but decide against buying one because of at least one glaring flaw.
- 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
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max_ 6y ago
The Razer Blade 15?
- isatty 6y ago
  Razer quality control is a joke and I would not consider them a good manufacturer of anything.
geonic 6y ago
This goes for many many things. Most products are produced and marketed for the general consumer. It‘s time-consuming and frustrating to sort through all that marketing crap when you‘re looking for a new device/product/part when you know what you want.
ThePhysicist 6y ago
Most of these points are just a matter of personal preference. I like Apple laptops but they're not great in terms of repairability, extensibility, modularity and openness. There are some non-Apple laptops with much better displays BTW, even Lenovo ships 500 nit displays and wide-color gamut ones with some their laptops nowadays. Dell and other manufacturers ship OLED display with some of their gaming laptops, which far outperform any Apple laptop display. Regarding Aluminium vs. hardened plastic / titanium I'd say it's just a style question, I have never had any issues with my Thinkpads and they're way more resistant to scratching than Apple laptops (a poor colleage of mine badly scratched his new Macbook with his steel wrist watch only days after receiving it). Regarding upgradability I prefer being able to extend RAM and hard disk as well as easily replace the battery, again Apple is a poor choice in regard to that. Regarding repairability Apple actively keeps me from being able to repair my machine, take e.g. a look at Louis Rossmans' Youtube channel to learn about some of the crazy stuff Apple does to keep independent repair shops out of the game. Again nothing that I want to encourage. That said the introduction of the M1 chips is pretty great, I plan to buy a Macbook Air as my second laptop for office work, I'll keep developing on a Thinkpad with Linux though.
- peterburkimsher 6y ago
  Ironically, I actually think old Apple laptops are better to repair, because of Rossmann. What other brand has leaked schematics and boardviews? Replacement batteries, iFixit guides, and skilled independent technicians keeping the A1398 and A1466 going as long as possible? I doubt Apple will return to their glory days of making those laptops new, but I feel like the repairability of 2014 Macs is still better than many Dell/Lenovo/HP/Sony alternatives. At the component and logic board level.
  - toper-centage 6y ago
    Most PC brands don't use custom chips and motherboards and etc. The build might be custom, but most parts are off the shelf. So each separate part is more likely to have some schematic out there of to follow similar design standards to other models.
- 6y ago
aliceryhl 6y ago
I have been using a Thinkpad T480s for a while, and I think it's a really great laptop, and have no complaints whatsoever about its quality.
fsflover 6y ago
Similarly, GNU/Linux phones, like Purism Librem 5. I expected that by 2020 we would have a huge ecosystem of smartphones like this.
krupan 6y ago
I have a corporate issued MacBook Pro and an HP Spectre that I bought for myself. The Spectre is better than the MacBook. Both have aluminum bodies, 4K screens, big touch pads, they are the same size, both have great performance. The HP has a much better keyboard. So much better. It runs Linux, not quite perfectly but pretty darn well. I actually like that the HP has a touchscreen, it’s often way quicker to reach out and touch a spot on the screen than to maneuver the mouse pointer to that same spot and then click. The HP has a regular USB port so I don’t have to keep a USB-C adapter around. The charger isn’t a giant heavy wall wart that falls out of older outlets. It’s a bunch of little things like that.
Shorel 6y ago
Except: give me touch and a convertible laptop with a good quality pencil. And insane battery life. We have different needs. Your needs are not mine.
- Klonoar 6y ago
  Not sure what's up with your tone, but sure, I'd agree with the needs comment. That said, I would would wager that your needs are moreso met as an existing, direct market though - whereas what I'm after is splintered and left only to Apple. To each their own, of course.
  - Shorel 6y ago
    Not really, battery life for non-Apple laptops is terrible.
yellowapple 6y ago
My Pixelbook seems to hit most of those points (though unfortunately not quite all): - Ships with CoreBoot - Much nicer fit/finish than the average non-Apple laptop (all metal, aside from the rubber palm rest) - Display wasn't defective :) - There's a logo, alas - Comparing to my work Macbook Pro, I'd say viewing angle and brightness are both on par, and the screen is indeed glossy - I don't know if the trackpad is actually glass, but it does feel nicer nicer than pretty much any other trackpad I've used (to the point where I don't miss having a nub like on my usual Latitudes/Precisions and ThinkPads) - No crazy vertical integration hardware-wise, but it being one of the main targets for Fuchsia is kinda cool, I guess - It has both touch and screen-flipping, but it's easy enough to just... not use them (and indeed, most of the time I don't) - I can't speak to the support aspect (since I've never had to put in a support request, and typically prefer fixing things myself anyway), but Google unfortunately has a, um, reputation... I've been pretty happy with it; it's a nice solid machine, and while I ain't a fan of Chrome OS at all, the Crostini support makes it at least usable for my purposes (and the first-class Android app support is a nice bonus). The main downside for me is that Chrome OS seems to be the only option for it that doesn't have some major drawbacks like missing audio support or suspend/resume issues.

acd 6y ago

If Lenovo would ship Coreboot Linux laptops that would fit the bill as premium and good laptop with open boot loader.

Klonoar 6y ago
This comes close, but I don't find the build to be as nice as a MacBook, and trackpad is the same issue. I do often look at a ThinkPad and wonder, though.
- crooked-v 6y ago
  I looked through ThinkPads in order to find standard recommended laptop selections for a previous job, and it was really striking (a) how many slightly different fiddly model selections there were with tiny differences that should have been an options picker rather than different product entries, and (b) how many of them still had 1080p-only screens in the year 2020. Like, come on, seriously?
  - Klonoar 6y ago
    This is part of what I take issue with, yeah. I'm just past the point in my life where I want to itemize this stuff. Take my money and give me the best package possible. I've got better things to do with my time. The entire buying experience also feels very sales-like - which, yes, it's absolutely a sales process - but the buying experience with Apple is leagues better and feels more human. This isn't even hardware, but website UI/UX... why on earth is it like this in 2020? This is much easier to solve than hardware chain issues.
  - jstimpfle 6y ago
    I just bought a T495s with Ryzen. It's a 14" 1080p. For my desktop PC, I use a 27" 4K monitor. I can tell you I love the 4K and would never go back. For the laptop though, the 1080p resolution is perfectly fine, plus it saves a lot of battery life compared to 4K.
- jitl 6y ago
  Microsoft and Lenovo both offer full-metal laptops with good rigidity and build quality. The Surface Book is weird but feels great in-hand. Trackpad is quite good, but, the whole thing is a giant gimmick. Lenovo X1 line has an all-metal option. I haven’t handled the 2019 version but previous iterations were quite nice - in a totally un-Apple-like way. Unfortunately, there’s no retailer out there that I trust to actually display these high-end laptops so you can go actually get a feel for them. The Microsoft Stores was the best bet, but those are all closing. I shopped for an all-metal laptop 2 years ago after leaving Airbnb and was wholly disappointed with this $600-$1400 lineup at BestBuy. I ended up getting a Huawei Matebook Pro X (sic) from the Microsoft Store in San Francisco. I put Linux on it, but were I to do it again I’d just spend 2x more on an actual MacBook.
exged 6y ago
Ehh, not really. I've used both Macs (old 15" rMBP, 12" Macbook, M1 Macbook Air) and Thinkpads (T450s, X1C G7, T14 AMD) and Lenovo just frequently drops the ball on things like display, speakers, touchpad and battery life. Apple has also made some poor decisions in various areas in the past like poor thermals, power-sucking dGPUs, and of course the butterfly keyboard. The M1 Macbook is very nearly perfect though, and I don't know how any of the PC vendors are going to top it.

NewLogic 6y ago

The XPS 15 is basically that laptop and is only hamstrung by dell being slow to move to Ryzen 4000 mobile chips. Mobile intel runs hot and slow.

Klonoar 6y ago
I'm sure some people like the XPS 15, but having tried it, I don't believe that it fits here - and honestly, I've not found _any_ Dell hardware to have fit and finish remotely close to a MacBook.
- izacus 6y ago
  Then you have very strange standards, the XPS 13 I have at home can easily compete with 13" MBP and outshines it in several areas. Especially having a sturdy build quality and a good keyboard.
  - Klonoar 6y ago
    The latest MBPs have the same, and outperform it. This isn't really debatable at the moment.
    - izacus 6y ago
      Huh, it's not? Why exactly?
    - TwoBit 6y ago
      After Apple's ongoing keyboard debacle and that stupid strip, I don't see how you have much credibility.
      - Klonoar 6y ago
        What? It's no longer "ongoing", as it was fixed and has been for some time. This is noted elsewhere in this thread, too. You can't try to claim someone has no credibility then wade in with incorrect facts. The TouchBar is bad and I wish they'd remove it, yeah.

drzaiusapelord 6y ago

I guess you can't out Apple apple. Apple has the culture and cultural force to sell you a laptop with ports you don't like or a weird keyboard. Part of buying an Apple product is being on a certain cutting design edge and being someone's beta tester. Its not a sharp edge and its a very mature beta, but there's a sort of agreement you sign your name to when you buy a Mac. In the PC world, the consumer space is dominated by anti-design nerdy guys who demand every port imaginable, and for good reason, and the business end is similar with their own legacy demands. Big changes in any way, be it features or lack-of are frowned upon and mocked (no wireless less space than a nomad -lame). No one is going to win here because no one else can have Apple's market. The incentives to win on the PC side are just too different. And even then, you can just bootcamp Windows or Linux and buy the 'real' Apple you want anyway. Honestly, its a small miracle something like Apple even exits in the tech space. Its usually a race to the bottom on half-cooked features, general cheapness, and terrible UIs. Somehow Apple broke free of that and never looked back.

Klonoar 6y ago
> and being someone's beta tester. Its not a sharp edge and its a very mature beta, but there's a sort of agreement you sign your name to when you buy a Mac. Complaints that you commonly see about Apple products are, I find, similar to reading complaints when you're apartment shopping: those who complain have reason to do so, and those with good experiences don't necessarily feel the need to write about them. For instance: those who experienced botched Catalina upgrades that caused Mail.app issues? I never experienced that, and I've two significantly sized accounts attached. In fact I upgraded my last machine from High Sierra to Catalina with no issues at all. The "beta" parts of macOS that people call out are just never things I've fought against - and I run a fairly custom-ish setup to boot. On that same note, I could throw a rock and find a KDE user who complains about KMail having issues... but you won't find many KMail users saying "yeah it just works and life is great". Software is complex. I wouldn't call macOS "beta" and by the same token I'm not going to label other OS/DE combos that either. (They also fixed the keyboard, so I'm over that complaint. Would I prefer the ThinkPad keyboard? Absolutely. But the new one works fine and fits the design aesthetic of the device.) tl;dr: The only "agreement" I find myself signing is that the thing looks and feels, and functions, like a premium product. I find myself endlessly frustrated that if I go car shopping for a premium item, I have different options... yet I just don't feel like I have this with computers. > No one is going to win here because no one else can have Apple's market. The incentives to win on the PC side are just too different. This is exactly why I'm saying that my ideal product wouldn't compete with the PC market. I fully recognize that's a losing battle.

x0x0 6y ago

I share this surprise. My guess is that, at this point, Apple has absorbed the vast majority of people who care about these things. And that is causing the other manufacturers not to care, because they have already lost the audience who does...

wyattpeak 6y ago
I wouldn't think so. I reckon they've probably absorbed the vast majority of non-gamers and people who don't need Windows for work, but neither of those two groups is small.

gfxgirl 6y ago

No logo? So the Apple logo is ok? My 2017 14" 1060 Razer seemed exactly like a black Macbook Pro (which I also owned at the same time). Metal case, Razer logo where the Apple logo was. HD-DPI display.

Klonoar 6y ago
If I could kill the Apple logo, I would. :)
- kjaftaedi 6y ago
  Yes, I think people would agree, but suggesting companies shouldn't market their products is silly. It's like adding 'I want a million dollars' to your list.
  - Klonoar 6y ago
    A version of your comment included the line "it's an unrealistic demand". Not sure if it's caching on HN or whatever, but to that point: so is, clearly, my entire list. If I'm saying I'll pay whatever price, though, you bet I'm putting that on there. ;P Edit: and to be fair, I'd take a logo that isn't an eyesore - the other commenter on this thread used some odd language for it, but I consider the Razer logo to be an eyesore. Bright green is not something I want on my laptop. The Apple logo, as annoying as it might be, at least doesn't look like someone took a crayon and scribbled on the back of the machine.
  - gfxgirl 6y ago
    I'm not so sure that's true though. Me, I don't buy any clothing that has a visible logo on it. I won't pay to advertise for someone. I know others show off brand logos for various reasons. For laptops I don't have much choice except to put a sticker over the logo.
tested23 6y ago
The razer logo looks like a trampstamp
6y ago

Jemaclus 6y ago

Related to this, I'm kind of shocked that there isn't a strong third option for OSes. We've got Windows and MacOS, sure, but the nix ecosystem is so fragmented and not as well supported as the other two that it's hard to justify switching. Like you pointed out, Mac feels premium because of the software/hardware tight coupling, and it just works. Windows is the same, but for reasons can feel less polished than MacOS. I turned an old Macbook into a Linux box, and it's fine*. It does what I need it to do, but it doesn't feel premium at all. I just wish I had really slick, solid, premium-feeling alternatives. It seems to me that Microsoft or Facebook or SOMEONE with a bajillion dollars could afford to do this and really make a dent in the space and give us more alternatives. I guess the demand just isn't there. Very sad.

TwoBit 6y ago
> shocked that there isn't a strong third option for OSes Why when there is no third OS that has even 1% share and all Linux combined is about 3%. And desktop Linux is bad.
- worik 6y ago
  Why is desktop Linux bad? I use MacOS (whatever it is called this week) Mint and LXDE Love Mint (typing on it) The Apple OS has a lot of rough corners (e.g. (max/min)imising windows is a world of pain) LXDE is acceptable because it is on my PI and I do not use the desktop much I have not used Windows desktop for about a decade, has it really gotten that much better? I am really happy with desktop Linux
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    > Why is desktop Linux bad? There are a huge range of reasons. There's no consistency, everything changes every 2 years, the documentation is awful when it exists at all, if software is outside your distro's package repo it's a bitch to install, there are too many different distros, the community is full of pricks, fragmentation is a time-honored pastime, complexity is fetishized... fuck sound still didn't work consistently on the last Linux based media center I built. A cursory search of the internet will turn up innumerable reasons Linux Desktop is bad. Which isn't to say that MacOS and Windows aren't bad (and getting worse), but they're still a damned sight better.

academia_hack 6y ago

I've really liked Gigabyte's gaming laptops (aero) for this reason. They've got premium build quality and excellent specs but don't look like a Mardi Gras float. They're also very light and have long battery life for the specs. Only downside is the price and mail-only support really.

monocasa 6y ago

The closest thing I've found to what you're asking for is the Huawei Matebook Pro that I rock. Everything I like about Macbooks, plus USB-A, plus 3000x2000 screen.

lmm 6y ago

I found the Surface Book had a wonderful premium feel; I went into the shop with a list of specs in mind, and Microsoft was the last manufacturer I'd imagine going with, but it's a powerful machine and also just a beautiful object. Metal case, relatively subtle/classy logo, absolutely beautiful screen, nothing else was compromised for the sake of touch, clean baseline first-party OS. If you really want a premium feel from anyone-but-Apple and are willing to pay more-than-Apple prices for it, I'd very much recommend it.

spurgu 6y ago
Does it run Linux properly? googling Answer seems to be maybe: https://www.most-useful.com/ubuntu-20-04-linux-on-surface-pro-4-working-pretty-well.html https://www.most-useful.com/ubuntu-20-04-linux-on-surface-pr... https://old.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/top/?sort=top&t=year https://old.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/top/?sort=top&t=year TBH I hadn't really considered Surface's before due to them being Microsoft devices.
- makuto 6y ago
  I have a Surface Pro 2 running with the linux-surface kernel [0]. It feels like it has some rough edges - you have to decide between having pen support or having touch screen support, and suspend can be unreliable. These issues may be fixed now. Also, I encrypted my Windows partition, and now it requires the key each time to boot up, so I recommend against doing that. Overall, I do agree that the hardware feels quite nice, and besides those issues I listed, the Linux experience is quite good. I was very happy to not be forced to use Windows. [0] https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface
- the__alchemist 6y ago
  You probably need a special Kernal. I got it running with Manjaro. I ditched that, and went back to Windows due to it not having a suitable writing app like OneNote. I found a few apps, but they weren't very good, and the pen had input lag. Also ran into issues with the OSK not showing at the right times. These limitations seem small, but are enough to degrade the experience.

TwoBit 6y ago

I have a MacBook Pro and a Lenovo Yoga and while other PC laptops I've had over 15 years were clearly worse than the Apple, the Yoga feels on par hardware-wise. What could I be missing? My only complaint is that the WiFi driver for it was bad (with lots of reports).

reitzensteinm 6y ago

My Zenbook Pro didn't seem all that different to my 16" Macbook Pro which it clones. The MacBook Pro has cooling issues, an awful keyboard and feels flimsy. The Zenbook had only a pseudo 4k display, a massive charger and a large bezel, although I believe that's gone on newer models. I wouldn't call one premium and the other not. They were both kind of underwhelming.

gjsman-1000 6y ago
The M1 Macs (and the Intel generation before it) no longer use Butterfly keyboards, but instead use the earlier "Magic Keyboard" which was well-loved. And the M1 Macs have, let's just say, better thermal management than most laptops now.
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
  Yeah, it's a 2020. It's pretty good considering the key travel limitations, but absolutely awful compared to other laptops I've used that just have more space. Plus the arrow keys... M1 does shake things up somewhat, and will make an even larger difference at the high end.

thebrain 6y ago

I'm not sure about the CoreBoot requirement but I've been pretty impressed by my wife's Microsoft Surface laptop. It's the closest thing to a MacBook you can get.

oliv__ 6y ago

I agree with this so much. I used to think Apple's products were the best and were so joyful to use. I still go back to try the newest macs with the old foolish expectations and walk out disappointed every time. I've tried PCs, they just aren't on the same level as Apple's hardware and I hate Windows. I've seen some cool customizations of Linux but would really rather not have to spend that time myself to get to a place where I'm productive. I want something that 90% "just works", but that's also pleasing to use. I really wish there was a solid third option, new tech is so cool yet the options available today seem so boring!

devwastaken 6y ago

The actual aluminum casing, screen, keyboard, trackpad - all possible. But designing the motherboard, lithium batteries, and digital charger is well outside the reach of most creators.

newsbinator 6y ago

> I would pay literally twice what I pay Apple for a competing product. In what way is Apple so bad that you would pay twice as much (thousands of dollars more) for a competing product?

Klonoar 6y ago
Where on earth did you read that I said Apple was _bad_? My issue is with everyone else in the industry not pulling their weight. I'm annoyed with having to give my money to one of the richest companies on the planet, solely because nobody else will actually compete. I run Apple hardware daily; it's clear that I'm fine with them as a product, especially if I want it cloned. Basically: I will pay a premium for an Apple-esque open laptop.

rilut 6y ago

Razer Blade Stealth 13 & Razer Book 13 fill this gap I use Stealth 13 and impressed with its metal body and touchpad, also no shiny RGB logo

pfranz 6y ago
I have notes from when I was researching around 2018. I had the Razer Blade Stealth in the running, but I was reading about support and longevity issues with them. Maybe they've been better recently? It's difficult to build a track record of longevity. I've had stellar longevity out of Apple hardware. I'm usually able to use it for a handful of years and sell it on ebay to put a good chunk towards something new. I have noticed certain models/runs have specific issues, laptop keyboards are probably the most recent and obvious, but for the most part you know what you're getting. Screen lamination problems or pinched monitor cable being a few others. When looking at alternatives saving only around 20% on the cost made it difficult when not being confident about longevity or resale. Sadly, other aspects weren't appreciably better (soldered on RAM, camera quality, performance, battery).
- ValentineC 6y ago
  > I had the Razer Blade Stealth in the running, but I was reading about support and longevity issues with them. Maybe they've been better recently? It's difficult to build a track record of longevity. Razer still has hilariously bad product management. One of their newest (non-hardware) launches is Razer Pay, a QR payment and Visa prepaid solution for Southeast Asia. It's been around since mid-2018, but they've just launched their prepaid card in Singapore. The app and backend quality is below average for a large company like Razer (think: multiple incidents of double charging, and authorisation charges not being refunded), and has the app's UI is ugly.

onecommentman 6y ago

When I was looking around a few months ago, the revitalized VAIO looked like it might be the ticket https://us.vaio.com/ https://us.vaio.com/ Made in Japan and oodles of legacy ports...

AtlasBarfed 6y ago

please add: HDMI 2.0+

jiggawatts 6y ago

I've had a very similar rant yearly for over a decade. I used to do it on Slashdot before YC News was a thing. You're not the only one, yet I feel this won't ever change. Nobody in the entire laptop industry cares or even knows about our complaints. There seems to be practically zero overlap between the professionals that use laptops -- such as software developers -- and the hardware engineers that design the laptops. As you've alluded, it's an insular industry with mostly foreign players such as Clevo in Taiwan. The market exists though. I suspect it would be profitable too! I regularly buy laptops for about AUD $5,000-$6,000, including the Clevo laptop I'm using now for work. My requirements are much more mundane than yours, but will similarly never be met: - Alternative keyboard layouts: Why must a $6K laptop for professionals (or gamers!) do idiotic things such as compress the arrow keys or hide the Ins/Del/PgUp/PgDn keys? Why can't I choose the keyboard layout? - Wider keyboards: I can't stand "gapless" keyboards that make touch typing the rarely used keys difficult. Most laptops reuse the 13-inch model's keyboard on all larger sizes, which wastes enormous amounts of real estate. (My current laptop is wider than my full-size 101-key keyboard, not including the number pad.) - Decent webcams and microphones: Is there some law that only mobile phones and tablets can have decent cameras? - Narrow-bezel screens: This is starting to very very slowly become the norm, but is still hit and miss. - Lightweight power supplies: Only Apple seems to have heard about Gallium Nitride power electronics, everyone else ships their more powerful laptop models with a power supply that is the size and weight of a brick. (My current laptop's brick is 1.9 kg!!!) - Integrated 5G: I'd like to have Internet connectivity without tethering, just like an iPad. If anyone from Dell ever reads YC News: I very nearly bought the new Dell XPS 17, but then I saw the keyboard and I immediately cancelled the order: https://i.dell.com/is/image/DellContent//content/dam/global-site-design/product_images/dell_client_products/notebooks/xps_notebooks/xps_17/pdp/notebooks_xps_17_laptop_pdp_image_mod5.jpg?fmt=jpg https://i.dell.com/is/image/DellContent//content/dam/global-... Compare with a Clevo 17 inch laptop keyboard: https://accessoriesales.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/1165_CLEVO.jpg https://accessoriesales.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/1165_... They seem to have found the room for full-size up/down keys, a number pad, as well as dedicated keys for ins/del/home. I never have to press the "Fn" key in normal usage! Every few years I look at Dell's top-of-the-line laptop, but decide against buying one because of at least one glaring flaw.

6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

max_ 6y ago

The Razer Blade 15?

isatty 6y ago
Razer quality control is a joke and I would not consider them a good manufacturer of anything.

geonic 6y ago

This goes for many many things. Most products are produced and marketed for the general consumer. It‘s time-consuming and frustrating to sort through all that marketing crap when you‘re looking for a new device/product/part when you know what you want.

ThePhysicist 6y ago

Most of these points are just a matter of personal preference. I like Apple laptops but they're not great in terms of repairability, extensibility, modularity and openness. There are some non-Apple laptops with much better displays BTW, even Lenovo ships 500 nit displays and wide-color gamut ones with some their laptops nowadays. Dell and other manufacturers ship OLED display with some of their gaming laptops, which far outperform any Apple laptop display. Regarding Aluminium vs. hardened plastic / titanium I'd say it's just a style question, I have never had any issues with my Thinkpads and they're way more resistant to scratching than Apple laptops (a poor colleage of mine badly scratched his new Macbook with his steel wrist watch only days after receiving it). Regarding upgradability I prefer being able to extend RAM and hard disk as well as easily replace the battery, again Apple is a poor choice in regard to that. Regarding repairability Apple actively keeps me from being able to repair my machine, take e.g. a look at Louis Rossmans' Youtube channel to learn about some of the crazy stuff Apple does to keep independent repair shops out of the game. Again nothing that I want to encourage. That said the introduction of the M1 chips is pretty great, I plan to buy a Macbook Air as my second laptop for office work, I'll keep developing on a Thinkpad with Linux though.

peterburkimsher 6y ago
Ironically, I actually think old Apple laptops are better to repair, because of Rossmann. What other brand has leaked schematics and boardviews? Replacement batteries, iFixit guides, and skilled independent technicians keeping the A1398 and A1466 going as long as possible? I doubt Apple will return to their glory days of making those laptops new, but I feel like the repairability of 2014 Macs is still better than many Dell/Lenovo/HP/Sony alternatives. At the component and logic board level.
- toper-centage 6y ago
  Most PC brands don't use custom chips and motherboards and etc. The build might be custom, but most parts are off the shelf. So each separate part is more likely to have some schematic out there of to follow similar design standards to other models.
6y ago

aliceryhl 6y ago

I have been using a Thinkpad T480s for a while, and I think it's a really great laptop, and have no complaints whatsoever about its quality.

fsflover 6y ago

Similarly, GNU/Linux phones, like Purism Librem 5. I expected that by 2020 we would have a huge ecosystem of smartphones like this.

krupan 6y ago

I have a corporate issued MacBook Pro and an HP Spectre that I bought for myself. The Spectre is better than the MacBook. Both have aluminum bodies, 4K screens, big touch pads, they are the same size, both have great performance. The HP has a much better keyboard. So much better. It runs Linux, not quite perfectly but pretty darn well. I actually like that the HP has a touchscreen, it’s often way quicker to reach out and touch a spot on the screen than to maneuver the mouse pointer to that same spot and then click. The HP has a regular USB port so I don’t have to keep a USB-C adapter around. The charger isn’t a giant heavy wall wart that falls out of older outlets. It’s a bunch of little things like that.

Shorel 6y ago

Except: give me touch and a convertible laptop with a good quality pencil. And insane battery life. We have different needs. Your needs are not mine.

Klonoar 6y ago
Not sure what's up with your tone, but sure, I'd agree with the needs comment. That said, I would would wager that your needs are moreso met as an existing, direct market though - whereas what I'm after is splintered and left only to Apple. To each their own, of course.
- Shorel 6y ago
  Not really, battery life for non-Apple laptops is terrible.

yellowapple 6y ago

My Pixelbook seems to hit most of those points (though unfortunately not quite all): - Ships with CoreBoot - Much nicer fit/finish than the average non-Apple laptop (all metal, aside from the rubber palm rest) - Display wasn't defective :) - There's a logo, alas - Comparing to my work Macbook Pro, I'd say viewing angle and brightness are both on par, and the screen is indeed glossy - I don't know if the trackpad is actually glass, but it does feel nicer nicer than pretty much any other trackpad I've used (to the point where I don't miss having a nub like on my usual Latitudes/Precisions and ThinkPads) - No crazy vertical integration hardware-wise, but it being one of the main targets for Fuchsia is kinda cool, I guess - It has both touch and screen-flipping, but it's easy enough to just... not use them (and indeed, most of the time I don't) - I can't speak to the support aspect (since I've never had to put in a support request, and typically prefer fixing things myself anyway), but Google unfortunately has a, um, reputation... I've been pretty happy with it; it's a nice solid machine, and while I ain't a fan of Chrome OS at all, the Crostini support makes it at least usable for my purposes (and the first-class Android app support is a nice bonus). The main downside for me is that Chrome OS seems to be the only option for it that doesn't have some major drawbacks like missing audio support or suspend/resume issues.