8 ms·

Fly Like You're Rich With Social Flights (And Private Planes)

181 points by valish 15y ago

tgraydar 15y ago
A long time ago, some friends and I rented out a wave pool at a Disney water park so we could have the waves all to ourselves. So after the tourists were kicked out, we put on our own music on the sound system and shared waves, a group of 10 friends. I think it cost $100 each. This is the same thrill, I'd imagine.
pitdesi 15y ago
A bunch of people have tried this before... I can't think of the names off-hand, but names in a similar space that I've seen recently are http://www.emptylegmarket.com/ http://www.emptylegmarket.com/ and http://www.flyruby.com/ http://www.flyruby.com/ I don't see how this will work - you need a huge marketplace, and even then it will generally be a lot more expensive than flying commercial. There are some limited uses like bowl games that I could see, but even then, why do you need socialflights? There are plenty of travel agents that charter flights for bowl games. What I don't get is how a site like this got in Fast Company, and what's up with that "baked in" image? (it's part of this series http://www.fastcompany.com/tag/baked-in http://www.fastcompany.com/tag/baked-in but why?)
- gaius 15y ago
  The economics of "luxury" travel are less than you think. Example: in my last company, we had an office in London and an office in Nottingham (northern England, the place where Robin Hood comes from), and people frequently traveled between the two. Well if 6 people needed to travel, it would have been cheaper to hire a fancy stretch limo and driver for the day and cruise around like rockstar pimps than it would be to take the train - and we'd have gotten more work done on the journey too! We never actually did of course, but only for appearances sake, financially it made perfect sense.
  - r00fus 15y ago
    I know that the UK trains (actually the tracks) are not as good as in France or Germany, but when I did stay in France, I often traveled from Paris to Tours. On a train (TGV), this takes about 1.5 hrs. By car it can take upwards of 3 hours on a good day. Variance in arrival time for the car was high, on the train, it was rather constant. Of course, if you don't have good point-to-point transport (ie, taxis, walkable) at either destination then all bets are off.
- danssig 15y ago
  Was this before or after TSA got involved? I'm sure there is a market here for people like myself who don't ever plan to fly in or to the US again so long as the TSA are there.
thesheenamedina 15y ago
I checked out their website and found a lot of deals on international flights as well. This isn't just something to consider for quick flights within the U.S.
edanm 15y ago
I don't understand this article. What does the "social web" have anything to do with why this is now possible? Even their example, flying three planes of sports fans out to another city, seems like something that could easily be arranged by the president of the fan club or something. If what they mean is that the "social web" makes this easier, then firstly, I'd love to know in what way exactly (they don't really describe how this works at all), and secondly, there's a big difference between making this easier, and making once impossible things possible (which is what this article claims). All in all, looks like I'm missing something
- gaius 15y ago
  It means a dozen random strangers who happen to want to do the same itinerary can now meet each other and get a Learjet. It's a matter of scale.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- gscott 15y ago
  They just need to get ahold of the do not fly list, there are a few hundred thousand people there that can take private flights but not commercial airline flights.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- T_S_ 15y ago
  Consumer aggregation. Magnified by mobile and web. It's a trend that's going to be bigger than social, because it adds economic value and is measurable to the Nth degree.
blhack 15y ago
The article is a bit disingenuous. While this might bring the cost down, it's certainly not going to be an alternative to commercial flights. Let's look at a flight that I would love to take right now: Phoenix to Seattle. Here is a map of the route you [could] take for this flight: http://wh98.fltplan.com/mapgenerator/index.cfm?UdTimer=40838&MapServiceName=fltplan&lon=-117.1&lat=40.44&wid=11.379&ht=16.515&iwd=928&iht=696&ZOOMTO=12345678&showmapmethod=imgsrc&mark=-112.011,33.435,red,;-111.97,33.4333,vor,;-112.48,34.7033,vor,DRK;-114.863,35.995,vor,BLD;-116.748,36.8,vor,BTY;-117.77,38.0033,vor,OAL;-119.656,39.5316,vor,FMG;-120.506,42.4933,vor,LKV;-122.31,47.435,vor,;-122.311,47.45,vor,;-122.311,47.45,red,KSEA,standalone;-112.011,33.435,red,KPHX,standalone http://wh98.fltplan.com/mapgenerator/index.cfm?UdTimer=40838... This 1028 miles, but lets say (for ease of calculation) that it's 1000 exactly. Now for an aircraft. The Citation V is a nice plane, holds about 7 people, and is something that would be appropriate for what the article seems to be describing. Cruising speed for this aircraft is 495mph[1], but again, for ease of calculation, say 500mph. Flight time is 2 hours each way, for four hours total. The citation 5 burns 210 gallons of fuel per hour of flight, so this means that round trip (4 hours), you're burning 840 gallons of fuel. Current fuel cost at Cutter Aviation in Phoenix is $5.58/gallon, so total fuel cost for this trip is 840 * 5.58 is $4687. That's just fuel. If there are 7 passengers, that is $669.6 per person. You still have to pay a crew, pay maintenance on the jet (which is an enormous cost), pay airport fees, pay administrative overhead, etc. [2] Estimates that cost/mile on a Citation V is $3.81 - My trip to Seattle costs $7620.0, or $1088 per person ($952/person if we use the jump seat). This now includes maintenance, but not administration, pilots, etc. I don't know about you guys, but that's not even remotely close to something that I can afford. According to hipmunk[3], even a super-short-notice flight to Seattle that leaves tomorrow is only $500. Even a first class flight is only $700. $700 is getting close to something comparable, but implying that this is something that is for more than just "the wealthy", is kindof wrong. Cool, but there is a reason only the very wealthy fly privately: flying privately is an absurdly expensive thing to do. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_Citation_V\ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_Citation_V\ [2]http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:edFt-3bDiGgJ:www.sterlingaviation.com/Group/PopularAircraftPDFs/Citation_V_specs.pdf+%22Citation+V%22+GPH&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESibEv814UmXQ3Uhp04uw4ONX_vGAaTE5HUXW1HPOW6xNI7KfoigPzl2OkDx-uuW177c28QYs8wnEqCT--dVQzDtUDjkw8cmmb7ptdLC5rab8EjQ6F1ka6Gmrc8XaFRta3VVx4Ia&sig=AHIEtbSxOvDElCOVYjY0tQTRrWtIRi0FKA&pli=1 http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:edFt-3bDiGgJ:w... [3]http://www.hipmunk.com/results?to=SEA&s=swz7fkx5vev&from=PHX http://www.hipmunk.com/results?to=SEA&s=swz7fkx5vev&... edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that this is a bad idea. The aviation industry has been screaming that this is the direction that commercial flight is going to take for quite some time now. I'm saying that the article's implication that the everyman can now fly "like you're rich" is a misrepresentation of what this service is actually aiming to do.
loarabia 15y ago
For those of you analyzing costs -- it seems to me that some lower costs might come about for dead heading (flying empty somewhere else for a pickup of a full price charter). Presumably a given charter was going to require the aircraft to do that route anyway so they may as well get some cash for it.
hammock 15y ago
One benefit of flying on a private/charter plane - you don't have to go through security.
- tlrobinson 15y ago
  In the past that's true because why would you want to hijack/blow up your own plane with your business partners / family / friends... but will that remain true if you're booking a private jet with 7 random strangers?
  - hammock 15y ago
    Yes. Because when you have one terrorist plus 10 planes with 100 people each, your chance of getting blown up is 10%. But when you have one terrorist plus 100 planes with 10 people each, your chance of getting blown up is only 1%
  - Eliezer 15y ago
    Yes, because inconveniences aren't for rich people. It's sort of like how kids in college don't get drafted.
jasonkester 15y ago
I've got a better idea in the same space. I've always wanted somebody to take the idea of "leave when full" minibuses in the 3rd world and apply it to popular airline routes. How cool would it be if there was an operator running flights from Los Angeles to San Fransisco using small commuter jets with no fixed schedule and plenty of planes. You'd just turn up, buy a ticket, make your way to the gate, and get on the plane. When it filled up it would taxi away and another one would fill its place. Average wait time: less than 15 minutes. No more showing up at the airport 2 hours early. Naturally, you'd have to charge a premium, but if you pick your routes correctly and target people with more money than time, you would clean up. The only downside is that you couldn't do it from actual commercial airports like LAX and SFO because you'd never get a slot to take off. You'd need to use smaller airports such as Boeing Field in Seattle. It still seems pretty doable though.
- corin_ 15y ago
  Personally I'd rather know the exact time I'm going to be taking off, so I can turn up at the perfect time (when I fly, at least out of England where I know the airports well enough, I turn up, drop off baggage, drink a coffee while smoking a cigarette, go through security, and I sit down in my seat a couple of minutes before the plane moves away from the gate). As opposed to your system, where I turn up, get on the plane, then... wait for an unknown time until it fills up.
  - jasonkester 15y ago
    Even if that unknown amount of time averaged 7 minutes?
    - corin_ 15y ago
      Find my any flight path that is active enough to fill a commercial plane every 7 minutes and I'll concede that it's an amazing idea.
      - jasonkester 15y ago
timclark 15y ago
Or maybe give the world a break and don't fly!
- danssig 15y ago
  You would rather we drove?
tekgnos 15y ago
You guys are missing the major cost savings while pouring over the numbers. It all comes from empty private jets as loarabia pointed out. Private jets fly empty all the time. This would be additional revenue for the owner/operators of the private jets. Notice that most of the flights are one way. That is because the jet is flying empty to pick up the real passengers, who pay, essentially, for the jet to come get them and take them where they are going. The real problem is what happens when wealthy people who fly private realize that poor schmucks are flying on their dime.
jdh 15y ago
Woo -- 12 whole flights completed. Yawn, until we see something scale. It's easy to overrate the savings opportunities in private air travel: there are empty seats! there are deadhead flights with no passengers! But hard to realize those savings. You need enormous scale. And most private jets would be far less comfortable than an MD80 or 737 if all the seats were full and it wasn't your friends or family -- loud, no headroom, no service, tiny bathroom. They make up for it by flying where you want, when you want -- but we lose those a lot of those benefits with this "solution". As said, this makes no sense hub to hub. Flying from Lubbock to Springfield? Maybe. Good luck filling those other six seats, and also filling that deadhead flight back.
Vivtek 15y ago
Direct link for the tl;dr crowd: http://socialflights.com/ http://socialflights.com/
graupel 15y ago
Our company (based in Cincinnati) uses a scheduled service charter that flies from a secondary airport to Chicago, NY and DC on great, 30 seat jets; it's a great business model and we love using it - http://ultimateairshuttle.com/ http://ultimateairshuttle.com/ - we feel rich flying it but it's cheaper than United or Delta for the same route + no TSA.
- jamesbressi 15y ago
  That is impressive. I cannot find one for here in Philadelphia!
clistctrl 15y ago
I wish they had prices, and was less specific. Sometimes it will be Friday, and I'm like "Man i don't care where I go, but I want to go on a weekend vacation."

181 points by valish 15y ago

A long time ago, some friends and I rented out a wave pool at a Disney water park so we could have the waves all to ourselves. So after the tourists were kicked out, we put on our own music on the sound system and shared waves, a group of 10 friends. I think it cost $100 each. This is the same thrill, I'd imagine.

pitdesi 15y ago

A bunch of people have tried this before... I can't think of the names off-hand, but names in a similar space that I've seen recently are http://www.emptylegmarket.com/ http://www.emptylegmarket.com/ and http://www.flyruby.com/ http://www.flyruby.com/ I don't see how this will work - you need a huge marketplace, and even then it will generally be a lot more expensive than flying commercial. There are some limited uses like bowl games that I could see, but even then, why do you need socialflights? There are plenty of travel agents that charter flights for bowl games. What I don't get is how a site like this got in Fast Company, and what's up with that "baked in" image? (it's part of this series http://www.fastcompany.com/tag/baked-in http://www.fastcompany.com/tag/baked-in but why?)

gaius 15y ago
The economics of "luxury" travel are less than you think. Example: in my last company, we had an office in London and an office in Nottingham (northern England, the place where Robin Hood comes from), and people frequently traveled between the two. Well if 6 people needed to travel, it would have been cheaper to hire a fancy stretch limo and driver for the day and cruise around like rockstar pimps than it would be to take the train - and we'd have gotten more work done on the journey too! We never actually did of course, but only for appearances sake, financially it made perfect sense.
- r00fus 15y ago
  I know that the UK trains (actually the tracks) are not as good as in France or Germany, but when I did stay in France, I often traveled from Paris to Tours. On a train (TGV), this takes about 1.5 hrs. By car it can take upwards of 3 hours on a good day. Variance in arrival time for the car was high, on the train, it was rather constant. Of course, if you don't have good point-to-point transport (ie, taxis, walkable) at either destination then all bets are off.
danssig 15y ago
Was this before or after TSA got involved? I'm sure there is a market here for people like myself who don't ever plan to fly in or to the US again so long as the TSA are there.

thesheenamedina 15y ago

I checked out their website and found a lot of deals on international flights as well. This isn't just something to consider for quick flights within the U.S.

edanm 15y ago

I don't understand this article. What does the "social web" have anything to do with why this is now possible? Even their example, flying three planes of sports fans out to another city, seems like something that could easily be arranged by the president of the fan club or something. If what they mean is that the "social web" makes this easier, then firstly, I'd love to know in what way exactly (they don't really describe how this works at all), and secondly, there's a big difference between making this easier, and making once impossible things possible (which is what this article claims). All in all, looks like I'm missing something

gaius 15y ago
It means a dozen random strangers who happen to want to do the same itinerary can now meet each other and get a Learjet. It's a matter of scale.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
gscott 15y ago
They just need to get ahold of the do not fly list, there are a few hundred thousand people there that can take private flights but not commercial airline flights.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
T_S_ 15y ago
Consumer aggregation. Magnified by mobile and web. It's a trend that's going to be bigger than social, because it adds economic value and is measurable to the Nth degree.

blhack 15y ago

The article is a bit disingenuous. While this might bring the cost down, it's certainly not going to be an alternative to commercial flights. Let's look at a flight that I would love to take right now: Phoenix to Seattle. Here is a map of the route you [could] take for this flight: http://wh98.fltplan.com/mapgenerator/index.cfm?UdTimer=40838&MapServiceName=fltplan&lon=-117.1&lat=40.44&wid=11.379&ht=16.515&iwd=928&iht=696&ZOOMTO=12345678&showmapmethod=imgsrc&mark=-112.011,33.435,red,;-111.97,33.4333,vor,;-112.48,34.7033,vor,DRK;-114.863,35.995,vor,BLD;-116.748,36.8,vor,BTY;-117.77,38.0033,vor,OAL;-119.656,39.5316,vor,FMG;-120.506,42.4933,vor,LKV;-122.31,47.435,vor,;-122.311,47.45,vor,;-122.311,47.45,red,KSEA,standalone;-112.011,33.435,red,KPHX,standalone http://wh98.fltplan.com/mapgenerator/index.cfm?UdTimer=40838... This 1028 miles, but lets say (for ease of calculation) that it's 1000 exactly. Now for an aircraft. The Citation V is a nice plane, holds about 7 people, and is something that would be appropriate for what the article seems to be describing. Cruising speed for this aircraft is 495mph[1], but again, for ease of calculation, say 500mph. Flight time is 2 hours each way, for four hours total. The citation 5 burns 210 gallons of fuel per hour of flight, so this means that round trip (4 hours), you're burning 840 gallons of fuel. Current fuel cost at Cutter Aviation in Phoenix is $5.58/gallon, so total fuel cost for this trip is 840 * 5.58 is $4687. That's just fuel. If there are 7 passengers, that is $669.6 per person. You still have to pay a crew, pay maintenance on the jet (which is an enormous cost), pay airport fees, pay administrative overhead, etc. [2] Estimates that cost/mile on a Citation V is $3.81 - My trip to Seattle costs $7620.0, or $1088 per person ($952/person if we use the jump seat). This now includes maintenance, but not administration, pilots, etc. I don't know about you guys, but that's not even remotely close to something that I can afford. According to hipmunk[3], even a super-short-notice flight to Seattle that leaves tomorrow is only $500. Even a first class flight is only $700. $700 is getting close to something comparable, but implying that this is something that is for more than just "the wealthy", is kindof wrong. Cool, but there is a reason only the very wealthy fly privately: flying privately is an absurdly expensive thing to do. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_Citation_V\ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_Citation_V\ [2]http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:edFt-3bDiGgJ:www.sterlingaviation.com/Group/PopularAircraftPDFs/Citation_V_specs.pdf+%22Citation+V%22+GPH&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESibEv814UmXQ3Uhp04uw4ONX_vGAaTE5HUXW1HPOW6xNI7KfoigPzl2OkDx-uuW177c28QYs8wnEqCT--dVQzDtUDjkw8cmmb7ptdLC5rab8EjQ6F1ka6Gmrc8XaFRta3VVx4Ia&sig=AHIEtbSxOvDElCOVYjY0tQTRrWtIRi0FKA&pli=1 http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:edFt-3bDiGgJ:w... [3]http://www.hipmunk.com/results?to=SEA&s=swz7fkx5vev&from=PHX http://www.hipmunk.com/results?to=SEA&s=swz7fkx5vev&... edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that this is a bad idea. The aviation industry has been screaming that this is the direction that commercial flight is going to take for quite some time now. I'm saying that the article's implication that the everyman can now fly "like you're rich" is a misrepresentation of what this service is actually aiming to do.

loarabia 15y ago

For those of you analyzing costs -- it seems to me that some lower costs might come about for dead heading (flying empty somewhere else for a pickup of a full price charter). Presumably a given charter was going to require the aircraft to do that route anyway so they may as well get some cash for it.

hammock 15y ago

One benefit of flying on a private/charter plane - you don't have to go through security.

tlrobinson 15y ago
In the past that's true because why would you want to hijack/blow up your own plane with your business partners / family / friends... but will that remain true if you're booking a private jet with 7 random strangers?
- hammock 15y ago
  Yes. Because when you have one terrorist plus 10 planes with 100 people each, your chance of getting blown up is 10%. But when you have one terrorist plus 100 planes with 10 people each, your chance of getting blown up is only 1%
- Eliezer 15y ago
  Yes, because inconveniences aren't for rich people. It's sort of like how kids in college don't get drafted.

jasonkester 15y ago

I've got a better idea in the same space. I've always wanted somebody to take the idea of "leave when full" minibuses in the 3rd world and apply it to popular airline routes. How cool would it be if there was an operator running flights from Los Angeles to San Fransisco using small commuter jets with no fixed schedule and plenty of planes. You'd just turn up, buy a ticket, make your way to the gate, and get on the plane. When it filled up it would taxi away and another one would fill its place. Average wait time: less than 15 minutes. No more showing up at the airport 2 hours early. Naturally, you'd have to charge a premium, but if you pick your routes correctly and target people with more money than time, you would clean up. The only downside is that you couldn't do it from actual commercial airports like LAX and SFO because you'd never get a slot to take off. You'd need to use smaller airports such as Boeing Field in Seattle. It still seems pretty doable though.

corin_ 15y ago
Personally I'd rather know the exact time I'm going to be taking off, so I can turn up at the perfect time (when I fly, at least out of England where I know the airports well enough, I turn up, drop off baggage, drink a coffee while smoking a cigarette, go through security, and I sit down in my seat a couple of minutes before the plane moves away from the gate). As opposed to your system, where I turn up, get on the plane, then... wait for an unknown time until it fills up.
- jasonkester 15y ago
  Even if that unknown amount of time averaged 7 minutes?
  - corin_ 15y ago
    Find my any flight path that is active enough to fill a commercial plane every 7 minutes and I'll concede that it's an amazing idea.
    - jasonkester 15y ago

timclark 15y ago

Or maybe give the world a break and don't fly!

danssig 15y ago
You would rather we drove?

tekgnos 15y ago

You guys are missing the major cost savings while pouring over the numbers. It all comes from empty private jets as loarabia pointed out. Private jets fly empty all the time. This would be additional revenue for the owner/operators of the private jets. Notice that most of the flights are one way. That is because the jet is flying empty to pick up the real passengers, who pay, essentially, for the jet to come get them and take them where they are going. The real problem is what happens when wealthy people who fly private realize that poor schmucks are flying on their dime.

jdh 15y ago

Woo -- 12 whole flights completed. Yawn, until we see something scale. It's easy to overrate the savings opportunities in private air travel: there are empty seats! there are deadhead flights with no passengers! But hard to realize those savings. You need enormous scale. And most private jets would be far less comfortable than an MD80 or 737 if all the seats were full and it wasn't your friends or family -- loud, no headroom, no service, tiny bathroom. They make up for it by flying where you want, when you want -- but we lose those a lot of those benefits with this "solution". As said, this makes no sense hub to hub. Flying from Lubbock to Springfield? Maybe. Good luck filling those other six seats, and also filling that deadhead flight back.

Vivtek 15y ago

Direct link for the tl;dr crowd: http://socialflights.com/ http://socialflights.com/

graupel 15y ago

Our company (based in Cincinnati) uses a scheduled service charter that flies from a secondary airport to Chicago, NY and DC on great, 30 seat jets; it's a great business model and we love using it - http://ultimateairshuttle.com/ http://ultimateairshuttle.com/ - we feel rich flying it but it's cheaper than United or Delta for the same route + no TSA.

jamesbressi 15y ago
That is impressive. I cannot find one for here in Philadelphia!

clistctrl 15y ago

I wish they had prices, and was less specific. Sometimes it will be Friday, and I'm like "Man i don't care where I go, but I want to go on a weekend vacation."