23 ms·

I think a large part of this (in the USA, anyways) is due to how modern cities are structured. It used to be, 100 or 200 years ago, that your workplace, your h

I think a large part of this (in the USA, anyways) is due to how modern cities are structured. It used to be, 100 or 200 years ago, that your workplace, your home, and your usual hang-out place were all within reasonable walking distance of each other. It wasn't a huge deal to go out and meet new people, as you'd naturally bump into them every day. Nowadays we have a large portion of people in bedroom communities, isolated in a sea of houses. They drive in isolated cars to their workplaces, swing by to get some Starbucks on the way in, and that's the extent of their social interaction. Apart from libraries and parks, there's not many places that you can regularly go and just "hang out" without spending money just to exist in that space. It's incredibly easy to go for weeks or months without any substantial social contact outside of work or your few neighbors. I feel like this is a reason why internet organizations and social media have exploded in popularity, for that matter. It's the new "default place" to hang out and get social interaction, for better or for worse. (I expanded on this in an article I wrote, https://invisibleup.com/articles/31/ https://invisibleup.com/articles/31/, if you want to check that out.)

cpursley 6y ago
This 110%. It's especially obvious after moving out of the US and it's hard to convey how much better cities built for humans are than cities built for cars than by experiencing it for yourself.
- xwdv 6y ago
  Yea so great, until you are struck by a pandemic and your minimalist home is basically now a prison cell where you can't do much because everything there is to do was outside your tiny home. Now I know people shitting on suburbs is the fashion, but the fact is if you are the kind of person who has hobbies that don't involve going out and socializing a bedroom community is perfect. You get your own land and a detached home with plenty of space to do mostly whatever you want. Woodwork, swimming in a pool, running around with your dog, playing loud music and movies, hosting dinner parties, whatever. It's so much more comfortable for people who don't have urges to just "hang out".
  - pharke 6y ago
    Why not both? Seriously though, suburbs would be a lot nicer if they were built on a human scale with amenities within walking distance rather than a sea of house bounded by freeways. You just need mixed zoning really, model it after a small town with fully detached housing surrounding a small core of low density apartments and shops. Rinse and repeat, call it a decentralized city or some such, maybe it'll catch on and get some planner's attention.
    - swsieber 6y ago
      This. I love in a sea of houses. Bu where I live I can take 30 minute walk to the doctor, or ironically, the gas station.
      - bigbizisverywyz 6y ago
        I think for that to work you need a strong public transport system (regular daily, frequent enough and comprehensive) as well as having multi-purpose buildings so that companies are mixed in housing, as well as green places and areas for people to meet, sit chat and go shopping. Doctors, dentists, hairdressers, cafes, bakeries and flower shops all fit nicely with housing.
    - OminousWeapons 6y ago
      Two of the central themes drawing people to suburbs are space and privacy. I agree that more mixed use spaces in suburbs would be nice, but fundamentally I don't think you are going to do away with cars in most suburban environments because I don't you can achieve the business density necessary to do so without sacrificing lot size and privacy.
      - pharke 6y ago
        I don't think you should do away with cars, we need them for efficient transport and whenever we need to travel longer distances. I just think we should build with both cars and people in mind. Most North American suburbs are focused solely on cars and houses with no provision for mixed use. I think the zoning is more to blame than cars for the current dire conditions.
- bigbizisverywyz 6y ago
  It looks like other people have got the message. https://eurocities.eu/stories/reclaiming-the-streets/ https://eurocities.eu/stories/reclaiming-the-streets/ and an article in the Guardian about Barcelona https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/may/17/superblocks-rescue-barcelona-spain-plan-give-streets-back-residents https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/may/17/superblocks-r... I'm personally heartened by people's moves to de-focus the car in urban places.
TaupeRanger 6y ago
You aren't more isolated living in a suburban house than in an inner city apartment. Isolation mostly has to do with your desire/initiative/ability to engage in social activities.
- 8bitsrule 6y ago
  Depends. Inner city may offer quicker/easier access to favored activities. When I had a car, I found that a ten-mile drive in from the burbs (and back) can become a barrier. Mass transit, much moreso. Socializing, there can be a substantial difference between interaction and meaningful interaction. Both can require time away from favored/necessary activities; both can have multiple consequences (desirable or not). A perceived need for constant contact may be unhealthy. Tech is a crappy substitute for the real thing (as E. M. Forster famously noted), so has some destructive potential.
- ip26 6y ago
  I don't know about that. I've observed that co-workers who live in the exurbs are virtually never seen at social functions.
  - goseeastarwar 6y ago
    There are many reasons for that: - They miss their kids - They prefer friends and activities much closer to where they live - Transit home gets far more complicated the later it gets, particularly when alcohol is involved
    - mnahkies 6y ago
      I think the complications getting transit home is a major cause of point two there. Co-workers that have to catch trains out to commuter towns always needed to be mindful of the time, and may have needed to drive the final part of their journey. Big contrast to being able to catch an underground/subway within a few minutes with no planning, and fall back to a relatively affordable Uber if you get carried away and miss the last one
  - 6y ago
legerdemain 6y ago
This... still exists? It's called the Elks, the Kiwanis, the Odd Fellows, the Jaycees, the Rotary Club, the Knights of Pythias, the Freemasons, and some organizations based on blood or military service, like the American Legion or the Daughters of the American Revolution. Even here in the Bay Area I live just a couple blocks down from a huge and well-appointed Elks lodge, and just a few miles away in downtown Mountain View, there is an Eagles lodge across the street from an Odd Fellows, itself a block away from a Freemason lodge.
- wyattpeak 6y ago
  I think they exist, but they don't appeal to younger people. All of the groups you mention that I'm familiar with I associate with people's grandfathers, or at youngest their slightly odd uncles. Also only with men, although maybe that's a bit of selection bias on the ones I know. If something exists but people aren't using it, it isn't the right solution. It might be hard to say why it isn't, it could even just be a marketing problem, but nevertheless the problem isn't solved by its existence.
  - legerdemain 6y ago
    They seem to appeal just fine in the Bay Area. In fact, I'd say that the main sources of social hookups and favor-trading around here are (a) churches and (b) fraternal orgs... possibly distantly followed by college alumni groups and actual college fraternities. I think just talking to an Apple dad about his life and priorities would be extremely eye-opening for a lot of people on HN.
    - spoonjim 6y ago
      What is an Apple dad?
      - legerdemain 6y ago
        A male human who works at Apple and has reproduced at least once.
WalterBright 6y ago
I miss living in the dormitory in college. Everything I needed was within a 3 minute walk. The dorm was full of my peers. There was always something fun going on. You had a room just big enough for a bed, a desk, and a sink. Everything else was common. If I was a developer I'd build a "dorm for adults" right next to places like Amazon, but at least around here zoning won't permit it. It's great if you're single and don't have many possessions. Inexpensive, too.
- Animats 6y ago
  WeWork tried that. It was called WeLive. It flopped.[1] [1] https://therealdeal.com/2020/06/08/wework-may-abandon-welive/ https://therealdeal.com/2020/06/08/wework-may-abandon-welive...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - robertlagrant 6y ago
    To be fair, it flopped during a pandemic that ate both WeWork's and WeLive's business models.
    - Werewolf255 6y ago
      To be fair, WeWork was pretty much a pyramid scene, so maybe not the best comparison.
      - ValentineC 6y ago
        How was WeWork a pyramid scheme for its visitors? I'm not seeing it.
- sbierwagen 6y ago
  Seattle briefly allowed microapartments, before single-family home owners fought back and got them killed again. You can see one here: https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/apa/d/seattle-apodment-suite-in-heart-of/7253688966.html https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/apa/d/seattle-apodment-su... $900/mo for 198 square feet. Kitchen sink, but no stove/oven. You do get your own bathroom, at least. Feeling a little agoraphobic with the above floor plan? Don't like those vast sweeps of empty space? No problem, try $875/mo for 147 square feet: https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/apa/d/seattle-apodment-suite-in-heart-of/7253669105.html https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/apa/d/seattle-apodment-su... Carefully examine the bathroom photos. No sink! You wash your hands in the kitchenette. Easy enough, when it's three steps away. (After all, where would you put a bathroom sink? The entire apartment is the size of an RV.) One upside: if the landlord gets on your nerves, it would be real, real easy to move out. A one-backpack apartment.
TeMPOraL 6y ago
I blame ubiquitous access to cars and phones as significant early contributors to this problem, with modern IMs and social media being the final nail in the coffin. Because together, these technologies enable your social network to be mostly independent of location. Nowadays, when you move to a different neighbourhood or a different town, you'll still be in daily contact with your friends and family from the previous location, and (if they're relatively close by car) you'll also hang out with them regularly. So you have no reason to try and meet new people at the place you now live in, because you still have your old social network! Hell, new friends will be competing for attention with your old friends - where just few decades ago, these old friendships would go to "hibernation mode" by virtue of distance. Internet communication, with its much richer modes of communication, is essentially social junk food. It's not a real substitute for meatspace interactions, but it satiates the hunger for socialization. Thus people feel ever more connected and ever more lonely at the same time - loneliness being social malnourishment.
presentation 6y ago
Plenty of people are isolated here in Tokyo, where the city is easily walkable, and you naturally bump into countless numbers of people everyday. I agree though that it's annoying that going out = spending a lot of money.

cpursley 6y ago

This 110%. It's especially obvious after moving out of the US and it's hard to convey how much better cities built for humans are than cities built for cars than by experiencing it for yourself.

xwdv 6y ago
Yea so great, until you are struck by a pandemic and your minimalist home is basically now a prison cell where you can't do much because everything there is to do was outside your tiny home. Now I know people shitting on suburbs is the fashion, but the fact is if you are the kind of person who has hobbies that don't involve going out and socializing a bedroom community is perfect. You get your own land and a detached home with plenty of space to do mostly whatever you want. Woodwork, swimming in a pool, running around with your dog, playing loud music and movies, hosting dinner parties, whatever. It's so much more comfortable for people who don't have urges to just "hang out".
- pharke 6y ago
  Why not both? Seriously though, suburbs would be a lot nicer if they were built on a human scale with amenities within walking distance rather than a sea of house bounded by freeways. You just need mixed zoning really, model it after a small town with fully detached housing surrounding a small core of low density apartments and shops. Rinse and repeat, call it a decentralized city or some such, maybe it'll catch on and get some planner's attention.
  - swsieber 6y ago
    This. I love in a sea of houses. Bu where I live I can take 30 minute walk to the doctor, or ironically, the gas station.
    - bigbizisverywyz 6y ago
      I think for that to work you need a strong public transport system (regular daily, frequent enough and comprehensive) as well as having multi-purpose buildings so that companies are mixed in housing, as well as green places and areas for people to meet, sit chat and go shopping. Doctors, dentists, hairdressers, cafes, bakeries and flower shops all fit nicely with housing.
  - OminousWeapons 6y ago
    Two of the central themes drawing people to suburbs are space and privacy. I agree that more mixed use spaces in suburbs would be nice, but fundamentally I don't think you are going to do away with cars in most suburban environments because I don't you can achieve the business density necessary to do so without sacrificing lot size and privacy.
    - pharke 6y ago
      I don't think you should do away with cars, we need them for efficient transport and whenever we need to travel longer distances. I just think we should build with both cars and people in mind. Most North American suburbs are focused solely on cars and houses with no provision for mixed use. I think the zoning is more to blame than cars for the current dire conditions.
bigbizisverywyz 6y ago
It looks like other people have got the message. https://eurocities.eu/stories/reclaiming-the-streets/ https://eurocities.eu/stories/reclaiming-the-streets/ and an article in the Guardian about Barcelona https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/may/17/superblocks-rescue-barcelona-spain-plan-give-streets-back-residents https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/may/17/superblocks-r... I'm personally heartened by people's moves to de-focus the car in urban places.

TaupeRanger 6y ago

You aren't more isolated living in a suburban house than in an inner city apartment. Isolation mostly has to do with your desire/initiative/ability to engage in social activities.

8bitsrule 6y ago
Depends. Inner city may offer quicker/easier access to favored activities. When I had a car, I found that a ten-mile drive in from the burbs (and back) can become a barrier. Mass transit, much moreso. Socializing, there can be a substantial difference between interaction and meaningful interaction. Both can require time away from favored/necessary activities; both can have multiple consequences (desirable or not). A perceived need for constant contact may be unhealthy. Tech is a crappy substitute for the real thing (as E. M. Forster famously noted), so has some destructive potential.
ip26 6y ago
I don't know about that. I've observed that co-workers who live in the exurbs are virtually never seen at social functions.
- goseeastarwar 6y ago
  There are many reasons for that: - They miss their kids - They prefer friends and activities much closer to where they live - Transit home gets far more complicated the later it gets, particularly when alcohol is involved
  - mnahkies 6y ago
    I think the complications getting transit home is a major cause of point two there. Co-workers that have to catch trains out to commuter towns always needed to be mindful of the time, and may have needed to drive the final part of their journey. Big contrast to being able to catch an underground/subway within a few minutes with no planning, and fall back to a relatively affordable Uber if you get carried away and miss the last one
- 6y ago

legerdemain 6y ago

This... still exists? It's called the Elks, the Kiwanis, the Odd Fellows, the Jaycees, the Rotary Club, the Knights of Pythias, the Freemasons, and some organizations based on blood or military service, like the American Legion or the Daughters of the American Revolution. Even here in the Bay Area I live just a couple blocks down from a huge and well-appointed Elks lodge, and just a few miles away in downtown Mountain View, there is an Eagles lodge across the street from an Odd Fellows, itself a block away from a Freemason lodge.

wyattpeak 6y ago
I think they exist, but they don't appeal to younger people. All of the groups you mention that I'm familiar with I associate with people's grandfathers, or at youngest their slightly odd uncles. Also only with men, although maybe that's a bit of selection bias on the ones I know. If something exists but people aren't using it, it isn't the right solution. It might be hard to say why it isn't, it could even just be a marketing problem, but nevertheless the problem isn't solved by its existence.
- legerdemain 6y ago
  They seem to appeal just fine in the Bay Area. In fact, I'd say that the main sources of social hookups and favor-trading around here are (a) churches and (b) fraternal orgs... possibly distantly followed by college alumni groups and actual college fraternities. I think just talking to an Apple dad about his life and priorities would be extremely eye-opening for a lot of people on HN.
  - spoonjim 6y ago
    What is an Apple dad?
    - legerdemain 6y ago
      A male human who works at Apple and has reproduced at least once.

WalterBright 6y ago

I miss living in the dormitory in college. Everything I needed was within a 3 minute walk. The dorm was full of my peers. There was always something fun going on. You had a room just big enough for a bed, a desk, and a sink. Everything else was common. If I was a developer I'd build a "dorm for adults" right next to places like Amazon, but at least around here zoning won't permit it. It's great if you're single and don't have many possessions. Inexpensive, too.

Animats 6y ago
WeWork tried that. It was called WeLive. It flopped.[1] [1] https://therealdeal.com/2020/06/08/wework-may-abandon-welive/ https://therealdeal.com/2020/06/08/wework-may-abandon-welive...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- robertlagrant 6y ago
  To be fair, it flopped during a pandemic that ate both WeWork's and WeLive's business models.
  - Werewolf255 6y ago
    To be fair, WeWork was pretty much a pyramid scene, so maybe not the best comparison.
    - ValentineC 6y ago
      How was WeWork a pyramid scheme for its visitors? I'm not seeing it.
sbierwagen 6y ago
Seattle briefly allowed microapartments, before single-family home owners fought back and got them killed again. You can see one here: https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/apa/d/seattle-apodment-suite-in-heart-of/7253688966.html https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/apa/d/seattle-apodment-su... $900/mo for 198 square feet. Kitchen sink, but no stove/oven. You do get your own bathroom, at least. Feeling a little agoraphobic with the above floor plan? Don't like those vast sweeps of empty space? No problem, try $875/mo for 147 square feet: https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/apa/d/seattle-apodment-suite-in-heart-of/7253669105.html https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/apa/d/seattle-apodment-su... Carefully examine the bathroom photos. No sink! You wash your hands in the kitchenette. Easy enough, when it's three steps away. (After all, where would you put a bathroom sink? The entire apartment is the size of an RV.) One upside: if the landlord gets on your nerves, it would be real, real easy to move out. A one-backpack apartment.

TeMPOraL 6y ago

I blame ubiquitous access to cars and phones as significant early contributors to this problem, with modern IMs and social media being the final nail in the coffin. Because together, these technologies enable your social network to be mostly independent of location. Nowadays, when you move to a different neighbourhood or a different town, you'll still be in daily contact with your friends and family from the previous location, and (if they're relatively close by car) you'll also hang out with them regularly. So you have no reason to try and meet new people at the place you now live in, because you still have your old social network! Hell, new friends will be competing for attention with your old friends - where just few decades ago, these old friendships would go to "hibernation mode" by virtue of distance. Internet communication, with its much richer modes of communication, is essentially social junk food. It's not a real substitute for meatspace interactions, but it satiates the hunger for socialization. Thus people feel ever more connected and ever more lonely at the same time - loneliness being social malnourishment.

presentation 6y ago

Plenty of people are isolated here in Tokyo, where the city is easily walkable, and you naturally bump into countless numbers of people everyday. I agree though that it's annoying that going out = spending a lot of money.