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The last thing police need are more tools that don't work and they don't understand how to use. That they still use polygraphs should make everyone's hair stand

by AmVess 6y ago

The last thing police need are more tools that don't work and they don't understand how to use. That they still use polygraphs should make everyone's hair stand on end.

tartoran 6y ago
As I understand polygraphs are used like placebos/intimidation tactic to get the suspects to spill the beans. As far as I know the polygraph isn't accepted as evidence in court unless all parties agree to it. However, the dirtiest thing is to use all kind useless evidence and intimidation techniques to scare otherwise innocent people into taking plea deals. This whole guilty plea saga is a disgrace to the justice system.
- jonny_eh 6y ago
  > As far as I know the polygraph isn't accepted as evidence in court unless all parties agree to it That's not the only place where they can be used, and cause damage.
- _underfl0w_ 6y ago
  Correct. It's widely considered inadmissible as evidence in court. They're also rarely used outside of the U.S. AFAIK. Recordings of interrogations that feature them also show that they tend to come along with other appeals to ethos ("this is doctor so-and-so...") and hand-wavey forms of intimidation like touting their "seriousness" or "efficacy". Anything that requires a person to "interpret" its output is likely not very deterministic, and so likely not very reliable for establishing... anything. This is akin to palm reading or graphology. Unfortunately, revealing to the police in such a situation exactly how foolish they look by getting behind such a device isn't exactly advisable either!
  - amiga 6y ago
    The Penn and Teller series, Bullshit, features an episode on polygraph machines and interviewer techniques. It's a good watch.
- KittenInABox 6y ago
  A failed polygraph while inadmissible in court will still be used by police during their own investigations to confirm or deny their "gut feeling".
  - AmVess 6y ago
    I failed a polygraph. There was a crime at a store, and my name came up when they searched through the ATM records. Police had ample evidence that I was in no way related to the crime, but kept trying to find something to pin on me because of the failed test. Those particular detectives had complete faith in the lie detector as a valid tool of police work. Video evidence of me entering the store, using the atm, and immediately leaving the store? That was not evidence to them because I failed the polygraph. I take an exceedingly dim view of any police department that uses a polygraph in any capacity. They've been proven time and time and time again to be worthless as a tool, but police still use them. The rough equivalent is using tarot cards as a tool for solving crimes.
    - CraneWorm 6y ago
      You assume they wanted truth when in reality they only want confession.
    - syshum 6y ago
      There are many things in law enforcement that have either been proven to be worthless, near worthless or never been proven to be valid... Eye Witness Testimony for example, aside from the fact the people are terrible at recall anyway and High Stress causes memory problems above and beyond the normal memory issues of the human mind, it is very very very easy to manipulate a victim either directly or indirectly to identify the "target" no necessarily the actual criminal police "drug" dogs are another one, it is more or less a blank check to probable cause for a search. Then there is one people never even question because it is the foundation of the legal system, the good old finger print... It always amazes me that with DNA it is always probabilistic, "1 in 4 billion people will have this same DNA" but with Finger Prints is an absolute, Match no match.. Call me crazy but I don't think that position is scientifically valid
- throwaway201103 6y ago
  > the dirtiest thing is to use all kind useless evidence and intimidation techniques to scare otherwise innocent people into taking plea deals They don't even need to do that. They can just lie to you. "Hey, your buddy just totally ratted you out in the other room, you better tell us your side of it if you don't want to take the rap for everything"
  - SerLava 6y ago
    Even worse, they can pretend they have evidence that they don't, pretend they believe the evidence, and pretend it's enough to convict you by itself. They can tell you to just say you were there, and they'll go easy on you. You lie and say you were there, now they have evidence that can actually lock you up, even if you are a random person off the street.
    - bluejekyll 6y ago
      To a degree, but I also think this will be changing over time as more and more innocent people are found to have been convicted on false statements used through coercive lying tactics by the police. For example, in this case police threatened to arrest the mans wife if he didn’t confess to killing his child (a new trial was ordered): https://brooklyneagle.com/articles/2014/02/20/police-can-lie-to-suspects-during-interrogations-says-court-of-appeals/ https://brooklyneagle.com/articles/2014/02/20/police-can-lie... But they went on to say it was still acceptable to lie to suspects... I imagine this murky area of the law will eventually say that police cannot lie to suspects. The Central Park Five is mentioned in that article and is a blatant example of police lying to coerce testimony and then putting innocent children in prison.
    - syshum 6y ago
      Even Worse than all of that, they can use all of those things, while threatening you with dozens of charges and decades of imprisonment then say "but if you act right now and sign this we will only give you a couple of years and then you will be free" in any other context these tactics themselves would be illegal, and i am firm believer that you can not enforce the law by breaking, and that the police should NEVER how the power to do things the public can not
pmiller2 6y ago
See also "touch DNA": https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191026/12493943266/federal-court-says-touch-dna-analysis-is-mostly-guesswork-that-cant-be-used-as-evidence.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191026/12493943266/feder...

by AmVess 6y ago

The last thing police need are more tools that don't work and they don't understand how to use. That they still use polygraphs should make everyone's hair stand on end.

tartoran 6y ago

As I understand polygraphs are used like placebos/intimidation tactic to get the suspects to spill the beans. As far as I know the polygraph isn't accepted as evidence in court unless all parties agree to it. However, the dirtiest thing is to use all kind useless evidence and intimidation techniques to scare otherwise innocent people into taking plea deals. This whole guilty plea saga is a disgrace to the justice system.

jonny_eh 6y ago
> As far as I know the polygraph isn't accepted as evidence in court unless all parties agree to it That's not the only place where they can be used, and cause damage.
_underfl0w_ 6y ago
Correct. It's widely considered inadmissible as evidence in court. They're also rarely used outside of the U.S. AFAIK. Recordings of interrogations that feature them also show that they tend to come along with other appeals to ethos ("this is doctor so-and-so...") and hand-wavey forms of intimidation like touting their "seriousness" or "efficacy". Anything that requires a person to "interpret" its output is likely not very deterministic, and so likely not very reliable for establishing... anything. This is akin to palm reading or graphology. Unfortunately, revealing to the police in such a situation exactly how foolish they look by getting behind such a device isn't exactly advisable either!
- amiga 6y ago
  The Penn and Teller series, Bullshit, features an episode on polygraph machines and interviewer techniques. It's a good watch.
KittenInABox 6y ago
A failed polygraph while inadmissible in court will still be used by police during their own investigations to confirm or deny their "gut feeling".
- AmVess 6y ago
  I failed a polygraph. There was a crime at a store, and my name came up when they searched through the ATM records. Police had ample evidence that I was in no way related to the crime, but kept trying to find something to pin on me because of the failed test. Those particular detectives had complete faith in the lie detector as a valid tool of police work. Video evidence of me entering the store, using the atm, and immediately leaving the store? That was not evidence to them because I failed the polygraph. I take an exceedingly dim view of any police department that uses a polygraph in any capacity. They've been proven time and time and time again to be worthless as a tool, but police still use them. The rough equivalent is using tarot cards as a tool for solving crimes.
  - CraneWorm 6y ago
    You assume they wanted truth when in reality they only want confession.
  - syshum 6y ago
    There are many things in law enforcement that have either been proven to be worthless, near worthless or never been proven to be valid... Eye Witness Testimony for example, aside from the fact the people are terrible at recall anyway and High Stress causes memory problems above and beyond the normal memory issues of the human mind, it is very very very easy to manipulate a victim either directly or indirectly to identify the "target" no necessarily the actual criminal police "drug" dogs are another one, it is more or less a blank check to probable cause for a search. Then there is one people never even question because it is the foundation of the legal system, the good old finger print... It always amazes me that with DNA it is always probabilistic, "1 in 4 billion people will have this same DNA" but with Finger Prints is an absolute, Match no match.. Call me crazy but I don't think that position is scientifically valid
throwaway201103 6y ago
> the dirtiest thing is to use all kind useless evidence and intimidation techniques to scare otherwise innocent people into taking plea deals They don't even need to do that. They can just lie to you. "Hey, your buddy just totally ratted you out in the other room, you better tell us your side of it if you don't want to take the rap for everything"
- SerLava 6y ago
  Even worse, they can pretend they have evidence that they don't, pretend they believe the evidence, and pretend it's enough to convict you by itself. They can tell you to just say you were there, and they'll go easy on you. You lie and say you were there, now they have evidence that can actually lock you up, even if you are a random person off the street.
  - bluejekyll 6y ago
    To a degree, but I also think this will be changing over time as more and more innocent people are found to have been convicted on false statements used through coercive lying tactics by the police. For example, in this case police threatened to arrest the mans wife if he didn’t confess to killing his child (a new trial was ordered): https://brooklyneagle.com/articles/2014/02/20/police-can-lie-to-suspects-during-interrogations-says-court-of-appeals/ https://brooklyneagle.com/articles/2014/02/20/police-can-lie... But they went on to say it was still acceptable to lie to suspects... I imagine this murky area of the law will eventually say that police cannot lie to suspects. The Central Park Five is mentioned in that article and is a blatant example of police lying to coerce testimony and then putting innocent children in prison.
  - syshum 6y ago
    Even Worse than all of that, they can use all of those things, while threatening you with dozens of charges and decades of imprisonment then say "but if you act right now and sign this we will only give you a couple of years and then you will be free" in any other context these tactics themselves would be illegal, and i am firm believer that you can not enforce the law by breaking, and that the police should NEVER how the power to do things the public can not

pmiller2 6y ago

See also "touch DNA": https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191026/12493943266/federal-court-says-touch-dna-analysis-is-mostly-guesswork-that-cant-be-used-as-evidence.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191026/12493943266/feder...