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> I can say from firsthand experience that my families mental health is severely compromised at this point, but unfortunately none of it could be solved by less

> I can say from firsthand experience that my families mental health is severely compromised at this point, but unfortunately none of it could be solved by less restrictive laws. It's all related to the pandemic and the choices we've had to make to reduce our chances of getting infected and passing that virus on to other people who have higher risks of dying [..] My daughter (5) talks almost daily about the stuff she wants to do "when C19 is over". I'm not worried about getting infected, I'm not worried about her or her elder siblings getting infected (they're at higher risk of getting hit by lightning). I'm not even worried about us infecting older relatives. I am worried about elder relatives not seeing their grandchildren for over a year (and so are the elder relatives, just for that extra data point) She's talking about the stuff she's not allowed to do "because" of C19.

tptacek 6y ago
This would be a more persuasive comment if you could be specific about what "she's not allowed to do", rather than just sort of implying that all the stuff your daughter wants to do is un-doable. I don't really understand the logic behind not being worried about your daughter being infected, because the odds of that are not in fact all that low. Do you mean the odds of her ending up with serious symptoms? Part of the point of articles like this is that we don't really yet know the prevalence of serious symptoms that don't involve acute respiratory failure.\ In a similar vein: I sort of understand the logic behind letting grandparents see their grandkids, because time is limited for them either way. But it's probably not a win if your kid visits your mom and she dies as a result, even if it was the last opportunity your mom would ever have to see your kid; it would be a scarring, debilitating thing to live with for your kid.
- logifail 6y ago
  > if you could be specific about what "she's not allowed to do", rather than just sort of implying that all the stuff your daughter wants to do is un-doable Do I really need to itemize all the things that kindergarten kids could do a year ago and can't do now? (Anyone with a 5 year-old, or indeed any child, can no doubt rattle off a list of this stuff pretty effortlessly...) > it's probably not a win Sorry, but who are you to judge that? I offered to take my daughter to see one set of grandparents a few weeks ago, involving international travel and - how can I put this? - a somewhat liberal interpretation of the rules. The grandparents bit my arm off. Their choice. Yes, they had a fantastic time with their granddaughter for about 24h. People die all the time, for all kinds of awful reasons. Looking at the raw stats, this year just isn't that outstanding. Sorry.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    I used the word "probably" to capture the fact that you might find the psychological cost of having your kid's visit to their grandparents kill that grandparent acceptable. Why don't you go ahead and rattle some of the things you're referring to off for us, so we're all talking about the same things.
    - logifail 6y ago
      [to go back a step] > I don't really understand the logic behind not being worried about your daughter being infected, because the odds of that are not in fact all that low. 1) Citation needed? 2) Definition of 'all that low' needed? EDIT: the boss at my daughter's kindergarten had C19 earlier this year, the mandatory quarantine was more of a big deal for her than the C19 itself. She's not talking about "Long Covid", she's not complaining about how bad it was, instead she's back at work looking after our kids. As a parent of three kids, I've made multiple trips to a local hospital to a) watch the kids be born, and b) get out-of-hours urgent treatment when no local doctor's practice was open. With multiple kids, it's not a surprise that we're on good terms with the staff at our local doctor's practice. [Un]surprisingly they're [also] pretty skeptical about the whole C19 story. They're even more skeptical about getting tested for C19, something our local government seems to be pushing.
      - tptacek 6y ago
        You've lost me here. This is an article about a new potential chronic symptom associated with C19. My point is that we don't know all the chronic symptoms that will ultimately be shown to result from C19. I don't understand how the fact that the boss at your daughter's kindergarten hasn't complained addresses that concern.
        logifail 6y ago
        > I don't understand how the fact that the boss at your daughter's kindergarten hasn't complained addresses that concern The data[0] appears to show that if you are under 60 and otherwise healthy, the risk from C19 is somewhere between "very low" and "zero". The younger you are, the lower the risk. If you're a child, the risk from the virus itself is so small as to be basically meaningless; the impact from society's response to C19 is likely to be severe[1] [0] https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/12/COVID-19-total-announced-deaths-17-December-2020-weekly-file.xlsx https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sit... [1] https://data.unicef.org/covid-19-and-children/ https://data.unicef.org/covid-19-and-children/

tptacek 6y ago

This would be a more persuasive comment if you could be specific about what "she's not allowed to do", rather than just sort of implying that all the stuff your daughter wants to do is un-doable. I don't really understand the logic behind not being worried about your daughter being infected, because the odds of that are not in fact all that low. Do you mean the odds of her ending up with serious symptoms? Part of the point of articles like this is that we don't really yet know the prevalence of serious symptoms that don't involve acute respiratory failure.\ In a similar vein: I sort of understand the logic behind letting grandparents see their grandkids, because time is limited for them either way. But it's probably not a win if your kid visits your mom and she dies as a result, even if it was the last opportunity your mom would ever have to see your kid; it would be a scarring, debilitating thing to live with for your kid.

logifail 6y ago
> if you could be specific about what "she's not allowed to do", rather than just sort of implying that all the stuff your daughter wants to do is un-doable Do I really need to itemize all the things that kindergarten kids could do a year ago and can't do now? (Anyone with a 5 year-old, or indeed any child, can no doubt rattle off a list of this stuff pretty effortlessly...) > it's probably not a win Sorry, but who are you to judge that? I offered to take my daughter to see one set of grandparents a few weeks ago, involving international travel and - how can I put this? - a somewhat liberal interpretation of the rules. The grandparents bit my arm off. Their choice. Yes, they had a fantastic time with their granddaughter for about 24h. People die all the time, for all kinds of awful reasons. Looking at the raw stats, this year just isn't that outstanding. Sorry.
- tptacek 6y ago
  I used the word "probably" to capture the fact that you might find the psychological cost of having your kid's visit to their grandparents kill that grandparent acceptable. Why don't you go ahead and rattle some of the things you're referring to off for us, so we're all talking about the same things.
  - logifail 6y ago
    [to go back a step] > I don't really understand the logic behind not being worried about your daughter being infected, because the odds of that are not in fact all that low. 1) Citation needed? 2) Definition of 'all that low' needed? EDIT: the boss at my daughter's kindergarten had C19 earlier this year, the mandatory quarantine was more of a big deal for her than the C19 itself. She's not talking about "Long Covid", she's not complaining about how bad it was, instead she's back at work looking after our kids. As a parent of three kids, I've made multiple trips to a local hospital to a) watch the kids be born, and b) get out-of-hours urgent treatment when no local doctor's practice was open. With multiple kids, it's not a surprise that we're on good terms with the staff at our local doctor's practice. [Un]surprisingly they're [also] pretty skeptical about the whole C19 story. They're even more skeptical about getting tested for C19, something our local government seems to be pushing.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      You've lost me here. This is an article about a new potential chronic symptom associated with C19. My point is that we don't know all the chronic symptoms that will ultimately be shown to result from C19. I don't understand how the fact that the boss at your daughter's kindergarten hasn't complained addresses that concern.
      - logifail 6y ago
        > I don't understand how the fact that the boss at your daughter's kindergarten hasn't complained addresses that concern The data[0] appears to show that if you are under 60 and otherwise healthy, the risk from C19 is somewhere between "very low" and "zero". The younger you are, the lower the risk. If you're a child, the risk from the virus itself is so small as to be basically meaningless; the impact from society's response to C19 is likely to be severe[1] [0] https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/12/COVID-19-total-announced-deaths-17-December-2020-weekly-file.xlsx https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sit... [1] https://data.unicef.org/covid-19-and-children/ https://data.unicef.org/covid-19-and-children/