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And actually all of those things are problems with the default prelude and not the language core. There are alternative preludes that one can use, and hopefully

And actually all of those things are problems with the default prelude and not the language core. There are alternative preludes that one can use, and hopefully these warts will be fixed in the future. It takes time because it's a breaking change though.

tmountain 6y ago
Here's a nice summary of some of the more popular preludes. https://guide.aelve.com/haskell/alternative-preludes-zr69k1hc https://guide.aelve.com/haskell/alternative-preludes-zr69k1h...
- asplake 6y ago
  Are there from-scratch tutorials based on any of these?
  - tmountain 6y ago
    This is a good primer. https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/protolude.html https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/protolude.html
    - asplake 6y ago
      Thanks. I meant a recommendable tutorial for Haskell newbies that starts from scratch with modern/sane defaults. I’ve seen webdev examples with quite offputting boilerplate that I’m told could be dealt with by a prelude and I wonder if it’s a problem that people are trying to solve.
dmitriid 6y ago
> And actually all of those things are problems with the default prelude and not the language core. This directly means "a problem with the lanuage" to any beginner with the language. Since it's the default Prelude. So a beginner has to somehow learn that there are issues with Prelude, that there are other preludes, find the differences between them, select one, and then reconcile the inevitable differences between those preludes and the official one when reding various docs. ... And then figure out wich of the two dozen language extensions you need to use to even write something useful beyond a "Hello, world".
- josephcsible 6y ago
  We didn't throw away C++ back when the STL was no good. Why should the situation with Haskell be different? (And Prelude's problems are way less severe than the problems the STL used to have.)
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    > We didn't throw away C++ back when the STL was no good. You're not doing Haskell any favors by comparing with "the times when STL was no good" (when was this? 20 years ago? 30?). > Why should the situation with Haskell be different? Because the world has moved on and expects languages, their libraries and runtimes to become better.
    - tome 6y ago
      > You're not doing Haskell any favors by comparing with "the times when STL was no good" Huh, why not? He's comparing not equating, after all. > And Prelude's problems are way less severe than the problems the STL used to have

tmountain 6y ago

Here's a nice summary of some of the more popular preludes. https://guide.aelve.com/haskell/alternative-preludes-zr69k1hc https://guide.aelve.com/haskell/alternative-preludes-zr69k1h...

asplake 6y ago
Are there from-scratch tutorials based on any of these?
- tmountain 6y ago
  This is a good primer. https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/protolude.html https://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/protolude.html
  - asplake 6y ago
    Thanks. I meant a recommendable tutorial for Haskell newbies that starts from scratch with modern/sane defaults. I’ve seen webdev examples with quite offputting boilerplate that I’m told could be dealt with by a prelude and I wonder if it’s a problem that people are trying to solve.

dmitriid 6y ago

> And actually all of those things are problems with the default prelude and not the language core. This directly means "a problem with the lanuage" to any beginner with the language. Since it's the default Prelude. So a beginner has to somehow learn that there are issues with Prelude, that there are other preludes, find the differences between them, select one, and then reconcile the inevitable differences between those preludes and the official one when reding various docs. ... And then figure out wich of the two dozen language extensions you need to use to even write something useful beyond a "Hello, world".

josephcsible 6y ago
We didn't throw away C++ back when the STL was no good. Why should the situation with Haskell be different? (And Prelude's problems are way less severe than the problems the STL used to have.)
- dmitriid 6y ago
  > We didn't throw away C++ back when the STL was no good. You're not doing Haskell any favors by comparing with "the times when STL was no good" (when was this? 20 years ago? 30?). > Why should the situation with Haskell be different? Because the world has moved on and expects languages, their libraries and runtimes to become better.
  - tome 6y ago
    > You're not doing Haskell any favors by comparing with "the times when STL was no good" Huh, why not? He's comparing not equating, after all. > And Prelude's problems are way less severe than the problems the STL used to have