4 ms·

Yes, but, this particular guy was working in the suburbs of an expensive coastal city, while living in an exurb. That's obviously not universal. But it is cer

Yes, but, this particular guy was working in the suburbs of an expensive coastal city, while living in an exurb. That's obviously not universal. But it is certainly the story of THIS guy, as well as many tens of millions of other Americans.

keiferski 6y ago
I’m certainly not arguing that rising inequality isn’t a bad thing, but your comment wasn’t about this guy, it was about Americans at large. Contrary to popular coastal belief, fly-over country actually has people, and culture, and life. The average American doesn’t live in NYC/LA/SF, they live in a small to medium size town. It is absolutely possible to live a frugal but reasonable lifestyle on a minimum wage job in most of the country.
- hapless 6y ago
  Forty five million people live in the NYC and LA metro areas alone. NYC is about 3% of the national population. Los Angeles is another 2.5%. The average American lives in a fairly considerable city, depending on your definition of "large." The vast majority live in cities of 100,000 or more. Almost half of Americans live in the 100 largest MSAs. For perspective, the #100 MSA is Fort Wayne, Indiana, at roughly 500,000 people. Not to mention, struggling to make rent, homelessness, and poverty don't just vanish when you step away from the most expensive cities. Living in "Santa Luna" (which I assume was actually Santa Cruz) instead of the suburbs where he worked didn't make his rent affordable in 1994, and it certainly wouldn't today, in 2020.
  - keiferski 6y ago
    I’m not really sure what you’re arguing for. I didn’t say anything of those things were non-problems, I said that having a minimum wage job isn’t some kind of homeless death sentence. It is completely possible to survive on a minimum wage job in many cities across the country. It isn’t luxurious, it isn’t fair, and it certainty isn’t ideal, but exaggerating the facts to make a sociopolitical point only makes the opposition have a stronger foothold.
    - hapless 6y ago
      I think it's very plain that holding a minimum wage job implies a tenuous ability to house and feed oneself in much of the country. It is not a complex thesis. I'm glad you were able to get by on the cheap in an unspecified midwestern city, but that doesn't change the picture for tens of millions of other people
    - Jetrel 6y ago
      He's arguing that this statement is false: > The average American doesn’t live in NYC/LA/SF, they live in a small to medium size town. http://css.umich.edu/factsheets/us-cities-factsheet http://css.umich.edu/factsheets/us-cities-factsheet "It is estimated that 83% of the U.S. population lives in urban areas, up from 64% in 1950." Demographic shifts are weird, man. I'm part of this big shift - I moved from a rural town in flyover country, to a giant metro area in flyover country. That metro area is most of the population of my state. It's sobering - you add up all the little rural towns and the number of people there just doesn't add up to much. That wasn't true, in the past. And it's like this in almost every state. We all moved to the city because all the farming jobs and factory jobs dried up.
      - keiferski 6y ago
        I’m not seeing where ‘urban area’ is defined in that document. I imagine it includes basically any town or city. The original issue was NYC/LA/SF vs. the rest of the country, not urban vs. rural. Plenty of college towns, for example, likely qualify as urban yet are extremely affordable.
        hapless 6y ago
        It's worth noting that the Bay area, the entire metropolitan area, is about the size of Detroit. It's about a quarter the size of Los Angeles or New York. It's a very, uh, Bay-centric view of the world that would lump those three together.
  - BrandonMarc 6y ago
    > Almost half of Americans live in the 100 largest MSAs. Meaning just over half live in the rest, with far lower cost of living.
    - hapless 6y ago
      Well, "the rest" is a long tail of areas with between 100,000 and 500,000 people. Very few Americans live or work outside an urban area, and a very large fraction live in the largest urban areas. Ignoring the facts of urban poverty because rural areas exist, at all, is ... not a great way to think about problems.
  - bumby 6y ago
    Not disagreeing, just curious where your data came from. The census data >80% of Americans live in urban areas but that’s loosely defined as any area with more than 2500 people
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  >> It is absolutely possible to live a frugal but reasonable lifestyle on a minimum wage job in most of the country. I don't really have a horse in this race as I'm an EU citizen and have never lived in the USA, but I am curious to know: have you, yourself, done this (what you say is absolutely possible)?
  - keiferski 6y ago
    Yes, absolutely. During and after college (4 year university), I worked at a bakery in a fairly major Midwestern city. For working ~45 hours a week, I made roughly $1,200 after taxes. One room in a 2-bedroom apartment was $350, leaving me with about $850 for everything else. Definitely enough for cheap beer, groceries at Aldi, and other budget entertainment. It certainly wasn't a luxurious lifestyle and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, but it also wasn't much different than living in a dorm at college...or even the startup lifestyle, seeing that this is HN. Absolutely doable for a young person (as the original link is about) and not a straight ticket to homelessness. For what it's worth, I also spent quite a bit of time traveling around Europe and had many art student friends living on half as much money in smaller cities in France, Germany, etc.
    - s5300 6y ago
      Did you have any significant medical issues?
    - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
      Thank you for replying. I live in the EU and indeed wages are lower, but of course prices are also lower. When I was 16, I worked at a bakery too, as an apprentice. I made a pittance and lived in a squat because I couldn't afford rent, but I enjoyed the work and I could eat of the produce to my heart's content (I have a big heart). This was in Athens, Greece, btw. On the other hand, neither I nor you had a family at the time we worked such low-pay jobs and I suspect that a minimum wage job would not be sufficient for two adults wanting to start a family.
  - OminousWeapons 6y ago
    I have not done this myself, but 2-3 of my friends are doing this currently in the midwest. One is working at a warehouse; one is working at a major home improvement store; and one is doing part time work which effectively amounts to minimum wage. Like the GP stated in his other post, their lifestyles aren't fantastic and they definitely are constrained in their spending, but they are hardly living in squalor: they have adequate, safe, reliable housing; they have functional vehicles; they have health insurance; they don't go hungry; they take driving trips; they come out to our group events and bring their own booze; and they are not in danger of becoming homeless. There is a huge delta between solidly middle class / upper middle class and poor / precarious or homeless which doesn't seem to be acknowledged.

keiferski 6y ago

I’m certainly not arguing that rising inequality isn’t a bad thing, but your comment wasn’t about this guy, it was about Americans at large. Contrary to popular coastal belief, fly-over country actually has people, and culture, and life. The average American doesn’t live in NYC/LA/SF, they live in a small to medium size town. It is absolutely possible to live a frugal but reasonable lifestyle on a minimum wage job in most of the country.

hapless 6y ago
Forty five million people live in the NYC and LA metro areas alone. NYC is about 3% of the national population. Los Angeles is another 2.5%. The average American lives in a fairly considerable city, depending on your definition of "large." The vast majority live in cities of 100,000 or more. Almost half of Americans live in the 100 largest MSAs. For perspective, the #100 MSA is Fort Wayne, Indiana, at roughly 500,000 people. Not to mention, struggling to make rent, homelessness, and poverty don't just vanish when you step away from the most expensive cities. Living in "Santa Luna" (which I assume was actually Santa Cruz) instead of the suburbs where he worked didn't make his rent affordable in 1994, and it certainly wouldn't today, in 2020.
- keiferski 6y ago
  I’m not really sure what you’re arguing for. I didn’t say anything of those things were non-problems, I said that having a minimum wage job isn’t some kind of homeless death sentence. It is completely possible to survive on a minimum wage job in many cities across the country. It isn’t luxurious, it isn’t fair, and it certainty isn’t ideal, but exaggerating the facts to make a sociopolitical point only makes the opposition have a stronger foothold.
  - hapless 6y ago
    I think it's very plain that holding a minimum wage job implies a tenuous ability to house and feed oneself in much of the country. It is not a complex thesis. I'm glad you were able to get by on the cheap in an unspecified midwestern city, but that doesn't change the picture for tens of millions of other people
  - Jetrel 6y ago
    He's arguing that this statement is false: > The average American doesn’t live in NYC/LA/SF, they live in a small to medium size town. http://css.umich.edu/factsheets/us-cities-factsheet http://css.umich.edu/factsheets/us-cities-factsheet "It is estimated that 83% of the U.S. population lives in urban areas, up from 64% in 1950." Demographic shifts are weird, man. I'm part of this big shift - I moved from a rural town in flyover country, to a giant metro area in flyover country. That metro area is most of the population of my state. It's sobering - you add up all the little rural towns and the number of people there just doesn't add up to much. That wasn't true, in the past. And it's like this in almost every state. We all moved to the city because all the farming jobs and factory jobs dried up.
    - keiferski 6y ago
      I’m not seeing where ‘urban area’ is defined in that document. I imagine it includes basically any town or city. The original issue was NYC/LA/SF vs. the rest of the country, not urban vs. rural. Plenty of college towns, for example, likely qualify as urban yet are extremely affordable.
      - hapless 6y ago
        It's worth noting that the Bay area, the entire metropolitan area, is about the size of Detroit. It's about a quarter the size of Los Angeles or New York. It's a very, uh, Bay-centric view of the world that would lump those three together.
- BrandonMarc 6y ago
  > Almost half of Americans live in the 100 largest MSAs. Meaning just over half live in the rest, with far lower cost of living.
  - hapless 6y ago
    Well, "the rest" is a long tail of areas with between 100,000 and 500,000 people. Very few Americans live or work outside an urban area, and a very large fraction live in the largest urban areas. Ignoring the facts of urban poverty because rural areas exist, at all, is ... not a great way to think about problems.
- bumby 6y ago
  Not disagreeing, just curious where your data came from. The census data >80% of Americans live in urban areas but that’s loosely defined as any area with more than 2500 people
YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
>> It is absolutely possible to live a frugal but reasonable lifestyle on a minimum wage job in most of the country. I don't really have a horse in this race as I'm an EU citizen and have never lived in the USA, but I am curious to know: have you, yourself, done this (what you say is absolutely possible)?
- keiferski 6y ago
  Yes, absolutely. During and after college (4 year university), I worked at a bakery in a fairly major Midwestern city. For working ~45 hours a week, I made roughly $1,200 after taxes. One room in a 2-bedroom apartment was $350, leaving me with about $850 for everything else. Definitely enough for cheap beer, groceries at Aldi, and other budget entertainment. It certainly wasn't a luxurious lifestyle and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, but it also wasn't much different than living in a dorm at college...or even the startup lifestyle, seeing that this is HN. Absolutely doable for a young person (as the original link is about) and not a straight ticket to homelessness. For what it's worth, I also spent quite a bit of time traveling around Europe and had many art student friends living on half as much money in smaller cities in France, Germany, etc.
  - s5300 6y ago
    Did you have any significant medical issues?
  - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
    Thank you for replying. I live in the EU and indeed wages are lower, but of course prices are also lower. When I was 16, I worked at a bakery too, as an apprentice. I made a pittance and lived in a squat because I couldn't afford rent, but I enjoyed the work and I could eat of the produce to my heart's content (I have a big heart). This was in Athens, Greece, btw. On the other hand, neither I nor you had a family at the time we worked such low-pay jobs and I suspect that a minimum wage job would not be sufficient for two adults wanting to start a family.
- OminousWeapons 6y ago
  I have not done this myself, but 2-3 of my friends are doing this currently in the midwest. One is working at a warehouse; one is working at a major home improvement store; and one is doing part time work which effectively amounts to minimum wage. Like the GP stated in his other post, their lifestyles aren't fantastic and they definitely are constrained in their spending, but they are hardly living in squalor: they have adequate, safe, reliable housing; they have functional vehicles; they have health insurance; they don't go hungry; they take driving trips; they come out to our group events and bring their own booze; and they are not in danger of becoming homeless. There is a huge delta between solidly middle class / upper middle class and poor / precarious or homeless which doesn't seem to be acknowledged.