3 ms·

But why do French universities appear to perform relatively poorly in several international university rankings?

by vixen99 16y ago

Rexxar 16y ago
Ecole Polytechnique is not an university, it's a separate system. There are a lot of engineering schools in France which are independent from universities. These schools are very small compared to universities.
_delirium 16y ago
Anecdotal, but some French computer scientists I know think language is one factor for their relative invisibility: basically everything is done in French, and much of it is required to be in French. The increasing practice in some other European countries is to allow a greater scope for English in the sciences and engineering. In particular, any official thesis or report must be in French, which means that the thesis itself won't be widely read/cited internationally, and means that it can't be directly chopped up to make English-language journal articles; the student would have to translate their own thesis to republish parts of it in journals. In addition, they aren't generally required to be able to: since everything official is done in French, it's not necessary for a student to have English writing skills of a level sufficient to write for a scientific journal (though they do generally need English reading skills sufficient to read papers in their area).
- 6ren 16y ago
  I've come across a couple of very cool French research/open source projects that haven't gone anywhere. eg http://old.koalateam.com/XML/serialization/ http://old.koalateam.com/XML/serialization/ (I know it's Java and XML, but consider the date: 1999. And it was just an incidental part of a larger project). They seem very insular, doing everything themselves and eventually running out of steam/funding - which reminds me of lisp projects (or... academic projects in general). I get the impression that the French academic culture emphasizes beautiful theory over pragmatism (e.g. Laplace vs. Lord Kelvin, IIRC). A great ideal, worked for Einstein.. but for few others.
- requinot59 16y ago
  > basically everything is done in French, and much of it is required to be in French. « La langue de la République est le français. » ("The language of the Republic is French"), first sentence of the second article of the French Republic Constitution (see http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006071194 http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=LEGITE...). Since universities are public, so republican, schools, it makes sense to make them apply and respect the constitution. The idea is that any French citizen is able to have access, read and understand any published university thesis (PhD), since they paid for them (via taxes). In the same vein, students of the École Polytechnique are required to work 5 years for the State after their studies, since the State paid such a good formation to them. French can always go to private school (or emigrate) if they don't agree with that.
  - roel_v 16y ago
    "Since universities are public, so republican, schools, it makes sense to make them apply and respect the constitution." Many constitutions have a clause like that. Encouraging international visibility, which requires English language skills, is not contrary to that. "French can always go to private school (or emigrate) if they don't agree with that." The point is that they're cutting off their nose to spite their faces. French researchers and students, and citizens more in general, are isolated in their own little world because their strange sense of 'pride' is causing them to be so. I don't care, really; but I do sometimes feel sympathy for those that I talk to who realize this and (rightfully) blame the system for their lowered chances at international success.
    - requinot59 16y ago
      > Encouraging international visibility, which requires English language skills, is not contrary to that. No, it's not, and international visibility is obviously a good thing! But there is a problem if a PhD is published only in english, because then there might be French citizens who will not be able to read a work they paid for (remember, the public education system is funded by the taxpayers-citizens). Since most people yelling about the "language restriction" problem actually imply that they should be able to publish in english only, I did recall that this would be unconstitutional in France. Additionally publishing in english has never been forbidden or discouraged! > I do sometimes feel sympathy for those that I talk to who realize this and (rightfully) blame the system for their lowered chances at international success. This system is the application of the law. The French law is the consensus of all the French citizens on the way they want to live all together. If you, individually, don't like the law, you can militate for a change (possible since France is a democracy), or leave the country, if you really can't live with this general consensus. Dura lex sed lex. In this specific case, you can also just go to a private school which will let you write in english or whatever. Sure, you'll have to pay there; sorry, you can't have the free public education with no duties in return in France. Ideologically speaking, the French education system is very egalitarian and very meritocratic. Lots of people don't agree with it (the majority still does). That's why the private schools were allowed (after a violent public debate). But it's a chosen, working and interesting system. Yes, you can "rightfully blame the system", in the sense that you have the right to disagree, but otherwise it's not any more "rightful" to blame it than to blame any other working system (e.g: the US one). It's just a different conception of education and its place in the society.
- rbranson 16y ago
  It reminds me of disturbingly common ideological standards at corporations that require all in-house software to be written in the-one-true-and-blessed-language, under the guise of a short sighted notion that this directly translates into understanding by all.
thibaut_barrere 16y ago
Ecole Polytechnique is considered the best of breed in France (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique). Other "grandes écoles" tend to follow the same pattern of breadth rather than depth. I can't tell much about university as I haven't been there.
lasonrisa 16y ago
The three main reasons are: size, language and research funding. The best higher education institutions in France are the "Grande Écoles", which are very small compared to North American univesities. Around 500 students graduate each year from the École polytechnique, for example. Although there are a lot more students who study to be accepted at these écoles, they do so in another parallel system called "classes préparatoires". Which is in its self separate from French university system. The French language does play another important role. France has not adopted english as much as Germany or the Scandinavian countries have. Publication is almost always done in French. Although my American friends tell me things have improved a lot in the past 10 years. Finally, although french universities and grand écoles perform basic and applied research, a majority of the work is done at public research labs. Their scientific results are attached to the lab, which are not part of the universities. Although they can often be in the same location. Nonetheless, if you ever have the opportunity and get accepted by one of these écoles do not hesitate to go. They are very good schools.
ssn 16y ago
Maybe the rankings are measuring the wrong things.

But why do French universities appear to perform relatively poorly in several international university rankings?

by vixen99 16y ago

But why do French universities appear to perform relatively poorly in several international university rankings?

Ecole Polytechnique is not an university, it's a separate system. There are a lot of engineering schools in France which are independent from universities. These schools are very small compared to universities.

_delirium 16y ago

Anecdotal, but some French computer scientists I know think language is one factor for their relative invisibility: basically everything is done in French, and much of it is required to be in French. The increasing practice in some other European countries is to allow a greater scope for English in the sciences and engineering. In particular, any official thesis or report must be in French, which means that the thesis itself won't be widely read/cited internationally, and means that it can't be directly chopped up to make English-language journal articles; the student would have to translate their own thesis to republish parts of it in journals. In addition, they aren't generally required to be able to: since everything official is done in French, it's not necessary for a student to have English writing skills of a level sufficient to write for a scientific journal (though they do generally need English reading skills sufficient to read papers in their area).

6ren 16y ago
I've come across a couple of very cool French research/open source projects that haven't gone anywhere. eg http://old.koalateam.com/XML/serialization/ http://old.koalateam.com/XML/serialization/ (I know it's Java and XML, but consider the date: 1999. And it was just an incidental part of a larger project). They seem very insular, doing everything themselves and eventually running out of steam/funding - which reminds me of lisp projects (or... academic projects in general). I get the impression that the French academic culture emphasizes beautiful theory over pragmatism (e.g. Laplace vs. Lord Kelvin, IIRC). A great ideal, worked for Einstein.. but for few others.
requinot59 16y ago
> basically everything is done in French, and much of it is required to be in French. « La langue de la République est le français. » ("The language of the Republic is French"), first sentence of the second article of the French Republic Constitution (see http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006071194 http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=LEGITE...). Since universities are public, so republican, schools, it makes sense to make them apply and respect the constitution. The idea is that any French citizen is able to have access, read and understand any published university thesis (PhD), since they paid for them (via taxes). In the same vein, students of the École Polytechnique are required to work 5 years for the State after their studies, since the State paid such a good formation to them. French can always go to private school (or emigrate) if they don't agree with that.
- roel_v 16y ago
  "Since universities are public, so republican, schools, it makes sense to make them apply and respect the constitution." Many constitutions have a clause like that. Encouraging international visibility, which requires English language skills, is not contrary to that. "French can always go to private school (or emigrate) if they don't agree with that." The point is that they're cutting off their nose to spite their faces. French researchers and students, and citizens more in general, are isolated in their own little world because their strange sense of 'pride' is causing them to be so. I don't care, really; but I do sometimes feel sympathy for those that I talk to who realize this and (rightfully) blame the system for their lowered chances at international success.
  - requinot59 16y ago
    > Encouraging international visibility, which requires English language skills, is not contrary to that. No, it's not, and international visibility is obviously a good thing! But there is a problem if a PhD is published only in english, because then there might be French citizens who will not be able to read a work they paid for (remember, the public education system is funded by the taxpayers-citizens). Since most people yelling about the "language restriction" problem actually imply that they should be able to publish in english only, I did recall that this would be unconstitutional in France. Additionally publishing in english has never been forbidden or discouraged! > I do sometimes feel sympathy for those that I talk to who realize this and (rightfully) blame the system for their lowered chances at international success. This system is the application of the law. The French law is the consensus of all the French citizens on the way they want to live all together. If you, individually, don't like the law, you can militate for a change (possible since France is a democracy), or leave the country, if you really can't live with this general consensus. Dura lex sed lex. In this specific case, you can also just go to a private school which will let you write in english or whatever. Sure, you'll have to pay there; sorry, you can't have the free public education with no duties in return in France. Ideologically speaking, the French education system is very egalitarian and very meritocratic. Lots of people don't agree with it (the majority still does). That's why the private schools were allowed (after a violent public debate). But it's a chosen, working and interesting system. Yes, you can "rightfully blame the system", in the sense that you have the right to disagree, but otherwise it's not any more "rightful" to blame it than to blame any other working system (e.g: the US one). It's just a different conception of education and its place in the society.
rbranson 16y ago
It reminds me of disturbingly common ideological standards at corporations that require all in-house software to be written in the-one-true-and-blessed-language, under the guise of a short sighted notion that this directly translates into understanding by all.

thibaut_barrere 16y ago

Ecole Polytechnique is considered the best of breed in France (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique). Other "grandes écoles" tend to follow the same pattern of breadth rather than depth. I can't tell much about university as I haven't been there.

lasonrisa 16y ago

The three main reasons are: size, language and research funding. The best higher education institutions in France are the "Grande Écoles", which are very small compared to North American univesities. Around 500 students graduate each year from the École polytechnique, for example. Although there are a lot more students who study to be accepted at these écoles, they do so in another parallel system called "classes préparatoires". Which is in its self separate from French university system. The French language does play another important role. France has not adopted english as much as Germany or the Scandinavian countries have. Publication is almost always done in French. Although my American friends tell me things have improved a lot in the past 10 years. Finally, although french universities and grand écoles perform basic and applied research, a majority of the work is done at public research labs. Their scientific results are attached to the lab, which are not part of the universities. Although they can often be in the same location. Nonetheless, if you ever have the opportunity and get accepted by one of these écoles do not hesitate to go. They are very good schools.

ssn 16y ago

Maybe the rankings are measuring the wrong things.