7 ms·

My son is interested in mechanical keyboards. Has built maybe six. So consequently I get involved. I’m not very impressed. The prices are extremely rich on e

My son is interested in mechanical keyboards. Has built maybe six. So consequently I get involved. I’m not very impressed. The prices are extremely rich on everything. There is an extreme social media marketing bs around everything. But the worst part for me is the PCB boards are mostly all coming from kbd fans (apparently one of the better makers) and their technical support is awful. Two different boards have developed problems which I’ve gone to great lengths to debug. The assistance from kbd is awful. Basically their answer was “here is a 12$ coupon, just buy a new $39 pcb”. And before fan boys attack me, both keyboards worked for a while and then developed problems. In the dz60 case somehow the cascading comm channel of the RGB stopped working. In the kbd67, far right column quit responding even though I trace the continuity to the atmel microprocessor. Cannot find a schematic for the kbd67 so I’m reduced to buying another so I can compare the circuits.... Another dislike is that full size keyboards are scorned and generally unavailable. Hey check it out, I’m a full sized adult doing full size job with my pc, so I actually do use the number pad, etc. Overall bad value for money and too much social posing.

jackewiehose 6y ago
> Another dislike is that full size keyboards are scorned and generally unavailable. Hey check it out, I’m a full sized adult doing full size job with my pc, so I actually do use the number pad, etc. I don't understand this trend for less and less keys. I get that it can be nice to have more room on the desktop but why would you give up the arrow- and F-keys. They are so useful and the space benefit without them is marginal.
- scaladev 6y ago
  I can't remember the last time I used the arrow keys. It's either hjkl, or Ctrl-{a,e,f,b,n,p}, depending on the application.
- thesuitonym 6y ago
  Like all fashion items, usability comes second to looks.
  - jrockway 6y ago
    I think it's disingenuous to call tools that other people value "fashion items". It may not be for you, but using layers to move keys closer to home row helps a lot of us with RSI problems. "Those of us with RSI problems" may include you some day; be careful.
    - thesuitonym 6y ago
      That's fair, I've not been exposed to people with RSIs that use these smaller keyboards. Most people I know with RSIs opt for the Microsoft ergonomic keyboards (The new ones are actually kind of cool looking!) I'm glad it's working out for you, and I'll certainly sneer a little bit less at them in the future, but just using my anecdotal experience, a lot of RSIs make chording keys difficult, and most people who use small form factor keyboards say they do so because it makes their desk less cluttered. Maybe it's not just a fashion item... But for a certain segment, it certainly is.
    - nikau 6y ago
      to be fair it is mostly fashion, just look at the stupid aviation connectors they put on the USB cable for example.
- IneffablePigeon 6y ago
  I gave them up because I really, really like the look of a keyboard that is 100% keys with no gaps. I realise that's not a brilliant reason but that's why. I don't want a numpad because getting my mouse closer to the center of my desk really helps with RSI for me. There weren't many options left at that point, especially since I wanted a UK layout and no unstandard key sizes (limits your options with keycaps). But yeah, if I could get something that looked as nice and had F+arrow keys I'd probably go for it. Fwiw I got used to the chords you need to access those pretty fast.
  - Veen 6y ago
    > I don't want a numpad because getting my mouse closer to the center of my desk really helps with RSI for me Same. I bought a full-sized keyboard with numpad, but I felt it put the mouse too far off to the right. I much prefer the mouse to rest couple of inches from the enter key.
    - function_seven 6y ago
      My current keyboard has no number pad for the same reason, but I miss it. I think my next one will have it on the left side.
      - Symbiote 6y ago
        You can buy a programmable macropad / keypad (there's a huge range in price). With the most programmable ones (look for "QMK"), you can assign keys to any arbitrary combination or sequence as you choose, and if required make layers, e.g. NumPad layer → IntelliJ shortcut layer → Some game shortcuts. Just an overview: http://xahlee.info/kbd/programable_keypads.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/programable_keypads.html I think the only disadvantage is it's a separate thing, so you have two things to push away from you if you don't want to use the keyboard.
  - cbm-vic-20 6y ago
    > I don't want a numpad because getting my mouse closer to the center of my desk really helps with RSI for me. Same here. I went with a smaller keyboard for ergonomics. Also, I never use F-keys and rarely use the arrow keys, and there are some "60%" layouts (The [Mass]Drop ALT) that still have the arrow keys. I don't care for the RGB and other blingy crap on these, since I really don't look at the keyboard much anyway.
- lawn 6y ago
  Because with layers (holding down a key to change what other keys are doing) you can have the arrows, numbers or F-keys right under your fingers. So you don't have to move your hands so much to use them, and some people really like that idea.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    I'm very much against fewer keys (I have lots of space!) but really like how the F keys are now layer+numkey. I don't have to stretch my fingers and lose no functionality otherwise.
    - layer8 6y ago
      It’s bad for IDEs and Excel etc. where you often already have one or two modifiers plus F-key.
      - StavrosK 6y ago
        Hmm, maybe. I don't use anything that requires a modifier with an F key, that might be why.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- tym0 6y ago
  For the arrow keys, if you've bind them to something like hjkl it means you don't have to move your hand to use them. Especially with a split spacebar as your fn key.
- oneeyedpigeon 6y ago
  macOS here — I never use the F-keys. I also always disable capslock because I never use that either. Having said that, I do make a lot of use of modifier+key for symbols such as quote marks, apostrophes, and dashes, so I'd love a keyboard where those characters are first class keys. Also, typing '#' is a pain on many (?) mac keyboards.
  - soneil 6y ago
    I think that's unique to the mac UK layout? # is usually on shift-3, so to accommodate £ on the same, they moved # to alt-3. Yuck. For me - There's another layout named "ABC - Extended", which reverses the two - so £ is on alt-3, but # is back where it belongs. It has a very different compose set behind the alt modifier though, so might be jarring if you frequently use them.
    - oneeyedpigeon 6y ago
      Yup, that must be what it is — frustrating because I need a £ symbol probably less than 1 percent as often as I need a #. I'm more-or-less used to it but every now and then I'll get the wrong modifier and do something like switch to tab #3 instead...
      - Symbiote 6y ago
        That's unfortunate (although for the majority of people in Britain, £ is obviously much more common). The British PC keyboard layout has # as a first-level key (next to Enter), and some Windows + Mac users manage to set the Mac to use this layout.
- igneo676 6y ago
  That's why there's a trend toward ortholinear keyboards at the small(est) end of things. It helps that they're also fully programmable. Want a numpad? Switch to a different layout on the fly and have a numpad where you want it. Arrow keys? F-Keys? Why not have those on home row with another layout! It can get gimmicky, but the impetus for it is that less overall finger/wrist movement == more ergonomic but I'm not fully convinced. Instead, I just prefer everything I can get on home row.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    Same here, I have nothing against more keys, I just have no use for them now. I wouldn't want to be without a num row, but now that my tilde key switches the right side of my keyboard's home row to numeric, I don't even have to move my hand away to type numbers.
- layer8 6y ago
  Agree. Having to use modifiers for the arrows and function keys etc. gives me worse RSI than having to move my hand back and forth a bit. Thumb modifiers are also bad for me, as my thumb joints seem particularly sensitive to RSI/arthrosis. One size doesn’t fit all in ergonomics.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    It’s my opinion that moving your hands is ultimately good, especially when compared against contorting your hands to hit multiple modifier keys. Much like transitioning between sitting and standing regularly is good, because it means you’re not constantly static.
- gorbachev 6y ago
  It's just personal preference. I can't use a smaller keyboard than 65% (no function key row, no numpad, but with an arrow and pgdn/pgup cluster), but I have friends who swear by 40% keyboards. Whatever works for you.
  - nikau 6y ago
    It depends on your job role - doing stuff in a terminal all day is probably OK with a 40%, if you type numbers and IP addresses all day you want a numpad, if you live in excel you probably want function keys.
- SebastianKra 6y ago
  Because the distance between the mouse and the keyboard needs to be as small as possible, or otherwise switching becomes frustrating. I wonder how many of the mouse-haters have a numpad. I used to be one of them until I got rid of it.
  - jfim 6y ago
    Interestingly enough, that's one thing that actually works well for left handed people, the numeric keypad isn't in the way using full sized keyboards. But you should've seen the incredulous look I got when I gave a USB number pad for Christmas to a left handed accountant.
prussian 6y ago
>Another dislike is that full size keyboards are scorned and generally unavailable. Hey check it out, I’m a full sized adult doing full size job with my pc, so I actually do use the number pad, etc. in fairness, you can buy separate numpads with the added bonus of being able to put it where you want. That being said, yes. the crazy 60%, etc keyboards are a bit much.
ifend 6y ago
> Another dislike is that full size keyboards are scorned and generally unavailable. Hey check it out, I’m a full sized adult doing full size job with my pc, so I actually do use the number pad, etc. I got a short keyboard (no number pad) for the ergonomics. I've been battling ergonomics pains (mainly shoulder). After reading many articles one mentioned getting a shorter keyboard so you don't have to move your hand as far to transition from keyboard to mouse. I gave it a try and it does help. I do miss the number pad though!
- jfim 6y ago
  You can actually buy USB number pads, and put them wherever is comfortable if you need to do lots of data entry.
milchek 6y ago
I was into the scene a little while ago and built a bunch of keyboards, ordered some of the rarer customs from massdrop and from manufacturers like rama. Honestly, it's hype culture. The scene seems to attract a very similar crowd to a lot of other hobbies that have limited batches or 'runs' of a product. Actually I found a lot of crossover with watch and shoe collectors and modified car enthusiasts. Some of the prices on caps and cases were insane. Then what happens is you get this status on particular makers or products that only had very limited runs and were sold at very high prices and the prices just keep going up. In the end I settled on a nice mass produced 60% board that suited me, got a relatively cheap case and some caps to taste, sold the other boards and left it at that. It was fun for a while, but it's a deep rabbit hole and quite expensive. I also noticed that for many (including myself to some degree) it turns into a 'collect and show off' endeavour, where your status in the community is basically tied to how much money you've spent. And that just wasn't the game I wanted to play any more.
Symbiote 6y ago
I bought an ergonomic, mechanical keyboard last year, since my decade-old Logitech keyboard broke and there were very few commercial replacements like it. I even bought a set of comparatively cheap keycaps -- having used Dvorak for 15 years, it's nice to finally have a keyboard with correctly labelled keys. But I find it very strange that some of the most popular mechanical keyboards are much less ergonomic than a cheap Dell keyboard -- especially the Planck Keyboard, and anything with a fixed 1970s "wedge" shape. In an effort to show there are some reasonable options, I made (strongly deriving from an earlier website on GitHub) and continue to maintain a gallery of ergonomic mechanical keyboards: https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
jrockway 6y ago
I think there are two problems here. One; the "audiophile" mindset has afflicted mechanical keyboards -- most people are buying keyboards for the purpose of showing off their keyboards, rather than to enhance their ability to interact with computers. Actual functionality is kind of an afterthought, and style is very important to people. Two; it's easy enough to make your own keyboard out of commodity parts that there might not be any market for unusual designs. What is available in bulk is what is profitable to manufacture in bulk, and that's what you see advertised in your "social media marketing bs". But, it's easy to make your own and opt-out of all of that. I wanted a split keyboard with the two halves a certain distance apart, thumb keys that were the exact size of my thumbs, and a numberpad in the middle. Shockingly, no such thing has ever been manufactured in bulk! So I drew one in CAD, printed it out, popped in the keyswitches, hand-wired the rows and columns, connected it to a microcontroller, downloaded commodity firmware to the microcontroller, and I had the exact keyboard I had always wanted. (Turns out: I hated it! But... you don't know until you try.) I guess what I'm saying is that you should skip the BS and make your own.
gorbachev 6y ago
You can buy 60% PCBs from several US based vendors with good support. My personal preference is 1upkeyboards out of NYC (Staten Island).
terse_malvolio 6y ago
I also think it's overhyped and overpriced. Don't get me wrong, custom keyboards are great and it's good to see innovation, but some builds aren't that reasonable in terms of investment for an input device.

jackewiehose 6y ago

> Another dislike is that full size keyboards are scorned and generally unavailable. Hey check it out, I’m a full sized adult doing full size job with my pc, so I actually do use the number pad, etc. I don't understand this trend for less and less keys. I get that it can be nice to have more room on the desktop but why would you give up the arrow- and F-keys. They are so useful and the space benefit without them is marginal.

scaladev 6y ago
I can't remember the last time I used the arrow keys. It's either hjkl, or Ctrl-{a,e,f,b,n,p}, depending on the application.
thesuitonym 6y ago
Like all fashion items, usability comes second to looks.
- jrockway 6y ago
  I think it's disingenuous to call tools that other people value "fashion items". It may not be for you, but using layers to move keys closer to home row helps a lot of us with RSI problems. "Those of us with RSI problems" may include you some day; be careful.
  - thesuitonym 6y ago
    That's fair, I've not been exposed to people with RSIs that use these smaller keyboards. Most people I know with RSIs opt for the Microsoft ergonomic keyboards (The new ones are actually kind of cool looking!) I'm glad it's working out for you, and I'll certainly sneer a little bit less at them in the future, but just using my anecdotal experience, a lot of RSIs make chording keys difficult, and most people who use small form factor keyboards say they do so because it makes their desk less cluttered. Maybe it's not just a fashion item... But for a certain segment, it certainly is.
  - nikau 6y ago
    to be fair it is mostly fashion, just look at the stupid aviation connectors they put on the USB cable for example.
IneffablePigeon 6y ago
I gave them up because I really, really like the look of a keyboard that is 100% keys with no gaps. I realise that's not a brilliant reason but that's why. I don't want a numpad because getting my mouse closer to the center of my desk really helps with RSI for me. There weren't many options left at that point, especially since I wanted a UK layout and no unstandard key sizes (limits your options with keycaps). But yeah, if I could get something that looked as nice and had F+arrow keys I'd probably go for it. Fwiw I got used to the chords you need to access those pretty fast.
- Veen 6y ago
  > I don't want a numpad because getting my mouse closer to the center of my desk really helps with RSI for me Same. I bought a full-sized keyboard with numpad, but I felt it put the mouse too far off to the right. I much prefer the mouse to rest couple of inches from the enter key.
  - function_seven 6y ago
    My current keyboard has no number pad for the same reason, but I miss it. I think my next one will have it on the left side.
    - Symbiote 6y ago
      You can buy a programmable macropad / keypad (there's a huge range in price). With the most programmable ones (look for "QMK"), you can assign keys to any arbitrary combination or sequence as you choose, and if required make layers, e.g. NumPad layer → IntelliJ shortcut layer → Some game shortcuts. Just an overview: http://xahlee.info/kbd/programable_keypads.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/programable_keypads.html I think the only disadvantage is it's a separate thing, so you have two things to push away from you if you don't want to use the keyboard.
- cbm-vic-20 6y ago
  > I don't want a numpad because getting my mouse closer to the center of my desk really helps with RSI for me. Same here. I went with a smaller keyboard for ergonomics. Also, I never use F-keys and rarely use the arrow keys, and there are some "60%" layouts (The [Mass]Drop ALT) that still have the arrow keys. I don't care for the RGB and other blingy crap on these, since I really don't look at the keyboard much anyway.
lawn 6y ago
Because with layers (holding down a key to change what other keys are doing) you can have the arrows, numbers or F-keys right under your fingers. So you don't have to move your hands so much to use them, and some people really like that idea.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  I'm very much against fewer keys (I have lots of space!) but really like how the F keys are now layer+numkey. I don't have to stretch my fingers and lose no functionality otherwise.
  - layer8 6y ago
    It’s bad for IDEs and Excel etc. where you often already have one or two modifiers plus F-key.
    - StavrosK 6y ago
      Hmm, maybe. I don't use anything that requires a modifier with an F key, that might be why.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
tym0 6y ago
For the arrow keys, if you've bind them to something like hjkl it means you don't have to move your hand to use them. Especially with a split spacebar as your fn key.
oneeyedpigeon 6y ago
macOS here — I never use the F-keys. I also always disable capslock because I never use that either. Having said that, I do make a lot of use of modifier+key for symbols such as quote marks, apostrophes, and dashes, so I'd love a keyboard where those characters are first class keys. Also, typing '#' is a pain on many (?) mac keyboards.
- soneil 6y ago
  I think that's unique to the mac UK layout? # is usually on shift-3, so to accommodate £ on the same, they moved # to alt-3. Yuck. For me - There's another layout named "ABC - Extended", which reverses the two - so £ is on alt-3, but # is back where it belongs. It has a very different compose set behind the alt modifier though, so might be jarring if you frequently use them.
  - oneeyedpigeon 6y ago
    Yup, that must be what it is — frustrating because I need a £ symbol probably less than 1 percent as often as I need a #. I'm more-or-less used to it but every now and then I'll get the wrong modifier and do something like switch to tab #3 instead...
    - Symbiote 6y ago
      That's unfortunate (although for the majority of people in Britain, £ is obviously much more common). The British PC keyboard layout has # as a first-level key (next to Enter), and some Windows + Mac users manage to set the Mac to use this layout.
igneo676 6y ago
That's why there's a trend toward ortholinear keyboards at the small(est) end of things. It helps that they're also fully programmable. Want a numpad? Switch to a different layout on the fly and have a numpad where you want it. Arrow keys? F-Keys? Why not have those on home row with another layout! It can get gimmicky, but the impetus for it is that less overall finger/wrist movement == more ergonomic but I'm not fully convinced. Instead, I just prefer everything I can get on home row.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  Same here, I have nothing against more keys, I just have no use for them now. I wouldn't want to be without a num row, but now that my tilde key switches the right side of my keyboard's home row to numeric, I don't even have to move my hand away to type numbers.
layer8 6y ago
Agree. Having to use modifiers for the arrows and function keys etc. gives me worse RSI than having to move my hand back and forth a bit. Thumb modifiers are also bad for me, as my thumb joints seem particularly sensitive to RSI/arthrosis. One size doesn’t fit all in ergonomics.
- falcolas 6y ago
  It’s my opinion that moving your hands is ultimately good, especially when compared against contorting your hands to hit multiple modifier keys. Much like transitioning between sitting and standing regularly is good, because it means you’re not constantly static.
gorbachev 6y ago
It's just personal preference. I can't use a smaller keyboard than 65% (no function key row, no numpad, but with an arrow and pgdn/pgup cluster), but I have friends who swear by 40% keyboards. Whatever works for you.
- nikau 6y ago
  It depends on your job role - doing stuff in a terminal all day is probably OK with a 40%, if you type numbers and IP addresses all day you want a numpad, if you live in excel you probably want function keys.
SebastianKra 6y ago
Because the distance between the mouse and the keyboard needs to be as small as possible, or otherwise switching becomes frustrating. I wonder how many of the mouse-haters have a numpad. I used to be one of them until I got rid of it.
- jfim 6y ago
  Interestingly enough, that's one thing that actually works well for left handed people, the numeric keypad isn't in the way using full sized keyboards. But you should've seen the incredulous look I got when I gave a USB number pad for Christmas to a left handed accountant.

prussian 6y ago

>Another dislike is that full size keyboards are scorned and generally unavailable. Hey check it out, I’m a full sized adult doing full size job with my pc, so I actually do use the number pad, etc. in fairness, you can buy separate numpads with the added bonus of being able to put it where you want. That being said, yes. the crazy 60%, etc keyboards are a bit much.

ifend 6y ago

> Another dislike is that full size keyboards are scorned and generally unavailable. Hey check it out, I’m a full sized adult doing full size job with my pc, so I actually do use the number pad, etc. I got a short keyboard (no number pad) for the ergonomics. I've been battling ergonomics pains (mainly shoulder). After reading many articles one mentioned getting a shorter keyboard so you don't have to move your hand as far to transition from keyboard to mouse. I gave it a try and it does help. I do miss the number pad though!

jfim 6y ago
You can actually buy USB number pads, and put them wherever is comfortable if you need to do lots of data entry.

milchek 6y ago

I was into the scene a little while ago and built a bunch of keyboards, ordered some of the rarer customs from massdrop and from manufacturers like rama. Honestly, it's hype culture. The scene seems to attract a very similar crowd to a lot of other hobbies that have limited batches or 'runs' of a product. Actually I found a lot of crossover with watch and shoe collectors and modified car enthusiasts. Some of the prices on caps and cases were insane. Then what happens is you get this status on particular makers or products that only had very limited runs and were sold at very high prices and the prices just keep going up. In the end I settled on a nice mass produced 60% board that suited me, got a relatively cheap case and some caps to taste, sold the other boards and left it at that. It was fun for a while, but it's a deep rabbit hole and quite expensive. I also noticed that for many (including myself to some degree) it turns into a 'collect and show off' endeavour, where your status in the community is basically tied to how much money you've spent. And that just wasn't the game I wanted to play any more.

Symbiote 6y ago

I bought an ergonomic, mechanical keyboard last year, since my decade-old Logitech keyboard broke and there were very few commercial replacements like it. I even bought a set of comparatively cheap keycaps -- having used Dvorak for 15 years, it's nice to finally have a keyboard with correctly labelled keys. But I find it very strange that some of the most popular mechanical keyboards are much less ergonomic than a cheap Dell keyboard -- especially the Planck Keyboard, and anything with a fixed 1970s "wedge" shape. In an effort to show there are some reasonable options, I made (strongly deriving from an earlier website on GitHub) and continue to maintain a gallery of ergonomic mechanical keyboards: https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/

jrockway 6y ago

I think there are two problems here. One; the "audiophile" mindset has afflicted mechanical keyboards -- most people are buying keyboards for the purpose of showing off their keyboards, rather than to enhance their ability to interact with computers. Actual functionality is kind of an afterthought, and style is very important to people. Two; it's easy enough to make your own keyboard out of commodity parts that there might not be any market for unusual designs. What is available in bulk is what is profitable to manufacture in bulk, and that's what you see advertised in your "social media marketing bs". But, it's easy to make your own and opt-out of all of that. I wanted a split keyboard with the two halves a certain distance apart, thumb keys that were the exact size of my thumbs, and a numberpad in the middle. Shockingly, no such thing has ever been manufactured in bulk! So I drew one in CAD, printed it out, popped in the keyswitches, hand-wired the rows and columns, connected it to a microcontroller, downloaded commodity firmware to the microcontroller, and I had the exact keyboard I had always wanted. (Turns out: I hated it! But... you don't know until you try.) I guess what I'm saying is that you should skip the BS and make your own.

gorbachev 6y ago

You can buy 60% PCBs from several US based vendors with good support. My personal preference is 1upkeyboards out of NYC (Staten Island).

terse_malvolio 6y ago

I also think it's overhyped and overpriced. Don't get me wrong, custom keyboards are great and it's good to see innovation, but some builds aren't that reasonable in terms of investment for an input device.