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Ask YC: "Rock Star" Job Titles
So someone mentioned to me the option of working full-time for a period of time on a very exciting project. The cost benefits would simply yield supplementary income, nothing super spectacular, so not getting the gig doesn't immediately mean I'll be shit out of luck with money.
But then I saw the job post and it said "ROCK STAR Developer" and immediately I didn't want to work for this company. I was asked why by a third party, and I explained how the whole cliche of calling people ninjas and rockstars is pointlessly chic, and trivializes what you want the person to do because their name "looks" hip and trendy.
And dear god I know one thing if I know anything: trendy fails to deliver.
Anyone else here have an opinion on the whole "rock star" job industry mentality?
- newton 18y agoStunt Programmer
- zacharye 18y agoA less-known employer looking for talent on a job board has very few ways to distinguish itself from the pack. Looking for a "rock star" may be one of the ways it tries to do so. Tacky? Most certainly. Effective? Probably not. I don't know if it should be discounted because of it though. The only way to truly determine if it would be a good fit is to talk to the company.
- bjclark 18y agoActually, a really good way to grab attention is by not doing what everyone else is doing. So, NOT looking for a "rock star" would be a good start.
- kareemm 18y agothis is 100% true. when we hired a developer at edufire.com, the ad ripped the phrase "web 2.0" and said if you were interested in building a real business that would change the world, you should get in touch. we got about 15 resumes, half were high quality, and we ended up being lucky enough to have an amazing developer agree to come on board. it's pretty simple: if you want to find the top 1% of developers out there, don't hire like 99% of companies.
- mcormier 18y agoI agree that it is pointlessly chic, however have you ever thought about it from the point of the people hiring? It is difficult to find good people to hire, and this company isn't making any bones about what they want. Also remember to separate human resources from development. What you are getting, unless the company is tiny, is HR spiel. I would use something like that as a flag of caution but I would want to see the job description/website/product information before making a final decision. The Omni Group calls their support staff, "Support Ninjas", and I thought it was humorous the first time I saw it a couple of years ago. http://www.omnigroup.com/company/people/ http://www.omnigroup.com/company/people/ If it's a churn and burn shop that pays nothing then yes, stay away. If it's an over zealous HR person, than give them the benefit of the doubt. :)
- h3h 18y agoI think the "rock star" mantra used to work well when everyone else had dental job postings and a standard application form that had to be faxed in. Now, though, marketing and recruiting people are clued in on the "ninja" and "rock star" terminology, so abuse it to no end. I too am turned off by these titles for this reason. When I'm recruiting I just go for what seems honest and appealing -- nothing overly flashy or trendy, but not boring either. I think the best positions combined with the best companies will always stand out in some way, but that way will probably continue to change.
- lrm242 18y agoAgree, stay away.
- bjclark 18y agoI totally agree 100%. If I see rockstar or ninja, I skip right past your ad. You want to get my attention? Tell me you're looking for a professional, and you're going to treat me like one. I want to know that I get 8 hours a week to work on opensource. I want to know that you're looking for craftsman, not ego maniacs. Mostly, I want to know that I'm not working with a group of people that saw the word rockstar and thought to themselves "Oh, rockstars huh? That's totally describing me." Also, please please please don't tell me you have funding from a "Top Tier" VC. It's a sure fire way to convince me that you care more about your ego than running a successful company. Who the fuck cares who funded you? I don't care who, I only care that you're going to be around for a long time. And, you're going to consider anyone that gives you a ton of money to be "Top Tier", so it's completely meaningless anyway.
- ivankirigin 18y ago"I want to know that I get 8 hours a week to work on opensource" You wouldn't work at a closed source company? edit: i read 8-hours-a-day -- sorry. that is somewhat reasonable. The unreasonable side comes from the inability to create hours. You can only add work. Side projects are always additive, unless you can stop work on a core project to do the side project. That's often bad for business, unless you're Guido. The solution is to just work more to make up the hours. Most people don't want to hear that though, because they like the idea of getting a gift of choice from a company.
- cstejerean 18y agoAny company that leverages open source software should make an effort to donate back to the community, even if the core of their software is closed source. Use Linux? Python? Emacs? Firefox? Allowing your employees to donate some time towards open source projects is probably a good way to attract talent. Advertising for "rockstar ninja" positions is not.
- wheels 18y agoWhile I agree that it's a much better way to attract talent, I'm going to say (as an OSS contributor myself) that unless it's already significantly into its funding cycle, a startup where you've got time to spend on random OSS stuff that doesn't directly benefit the company is probably focusing on the wrong things.
- blogimus 18y agoTo paraphrase from a popular movie: "When everyone is a rock star, no one is."
- ivankirigin 18y agoNot everyone is a rock star.
- fallentimes 18y agoIn general, when people use cliche, uncreative analogies to describe something, it comes off as ridiculous. Everything from GE calling their Six Sigma employees "black belts", to sales forces looking for "movers and shakers", to Fortune 500 companies overusing sports analogies, to people looking for "rockstar" developers. It's trite and makes them look awful.
- DocSavage 18y agoWhen just about everyone is a rock star, the lone groupie will be in high demand.
- ivankirigin 18y agoThere is a lesson for the long tail here, right?
- sosuke 18y agoI see some postings for code ninjas but where is all the love for code pirates? Pirates need love too!
- thorax 18y agoWell, I wanted that, too ("Python Pirates, Arr!") But it has a little bit of a bad connotation. Sounds like people who steal code all the time. "Pirates ship it."
- transburgh 18y agoI have to listen to the "ninja" term all the time in my office. It drives me up the wall.
- immad 18y agoIs that because you don't want your ninja identity exposed?
- aaronblohowiak 18y agoWhy would he be climbing walls if he didn't want to be exposed?
- swombat 18y agoTry walking on the floor instead, and they might not catch on to your secret identity.
- fortes 18y agoI find it funny that, typically, these companies want 'rock stars,' but are unwilling to pay a commiserate rate. If you really believe you want a star, say John Resig or someone similar, you better have a kick-ass project and be prepared to pay for him ... otherwise, you're just hoping you can get someone good on the cheap.
- sant0sk1 18y agocommiserate (http://definr.com/commiserate http://definr.com/commiserate) v : to feel or express sympathy or compassion [syn: sympathize] I think you meant a "commensurate rate" :-)
- SwellJoe 18y agoWork environment is also a big issue. I've known great developers (a few of which have written code every Python developer uses every day) who've made their employment decisions based on how they'll be treated, who they'll be working with, and with what tools they'll be working (and even what they'll be working on....Open Source development has a strong allure for many developers, beyond mere money). Aeron chairs have a reputation for being a "boom era boondoggle", but if you don't provide a good chair, you won't keep a good developer sitting for long. Great recent hardware to work on is a given. Big monitors, a given. Whatever software and hardware they need to be comfortable: trackball or fancy mouse, weird keyboard, monitor stand, etc. Likewise for snacks and their favorite beverages. As a startup, I'm running cheap. But, when it comes time to hire folks, I'm stocking the damned fridge with the best stuff money can buy, buying great chairs and huge monitors, and anything else I can to make working for me and with me the best work experience of their lives. Even if it costs $5000-$7500 right off the bat to equip a developer, that's chump change compared to the opportunity cost of hiring a new one to replace him if he leaves. And it's a small percentage of their total compensation package. (And we have that wonderfully alluring Open Source thing going for us, so we won't lose folks just because they don't get to see their code set free.) Reckon we could hire Resig? I hear he likes Perl.
- rhymes 18y agowhich is the name of your company :) ?
- brk 18y agoOne thing that you just generally have to watch out for with startup job postings is the people who have drunk too much of their own Kool Aid. Everyone believes they will change the world and make a major impact. Some certainly will change the world, others will "merely" exist in a self-sustaining niche that never changes the game, but earns everyone a nice salary. Most startups are masters of spin, you pretty much have to be. Every developer is a "Rock Star", every VC is "Top Tier", every release is a "Revolutionary enhancement", and even though there could be 8 players in any one market, each one is somehow or another the "Leader", "Market Leader", or "Top Ranked" one. Don't be turned off JUST by the job posting...
- nickb 18y ago"ROCK STAR Developer" is probably a synonym for an underpaid, overworked developers ;). They can't pay you with money so they pay you with empty superlatives.
- LogicHoleFlaw 18y agoDo they still get groupies?
- andrewparker 18y agoMeh... after working with a team of 20 developers for a few months, I could very clearly tell you who are the rock stars and who are not. Particularly in software development, some people are just unbelievably better than others.
- teamonkey 18y agoI'm more of a roadie.
- ivankirigin 18y agoI've found that the vast majority of functioning code is written by a small minority of people at the company. The current exception for me is Tipjoy. That's because I'm the only developer, and own 100% of both the angelic and filthy code. While the term "rock star" is a bit silly, a goal of mine is to grab someone from that 1-5% pool at a company that actually writes good code.
- iamdave 18y agoI don't think someone who simply rocks to the beat of chic and trendy catch phrases means they can produce the best code.
- ivankirigin 18y agoI wouldn't get so hung up on wording of a job post. Talking to someone for 20 seconds will give you inordinately more information.
- pg 18y agoJob ads are usually full of cliches. The interesting thing to me is how much they've have changed. Ten years ago it was "team player." Now it's "rockstar." Silly as it is, that's at least a sign of progress. It means employers have now realized that you want the smartest programmers, rather than obedient ones. I suspect Google's example is the main reason for this change. Or evolution.
- jmatt 18y agoSo from your perspective the companies that use "rockstar" and similar terms are probably better for hackers than a standard job posting? Since they are at least looking for the right type of programmers... I can see that perspective. It's always possible that some horrible HR person posted the job. I've talked to some horrible HR people at Microsoft and Google in the past (when they were "cool" places to work with super smart types). I think the most obvious move is to interview and talk to the people you will be working for/with. In many cases the specific project or team is as important as the company. The job ad is just to get that initial interest. To get you to commit to sending a resume or taking a phone call.
- steveplace 18y agoClearly we need to develop some new titles 1) Code Baristas 2) Python Jockeys 3) CrackerJack Developers (retro!)
- whyleyc 18y agoArc Angel ?
- byrneseyeview 18y agoJava Zeppelins.
- dangoldin 18y agoPerl Bandits.
- incomethax 18y agoRuby Wranglers.
- abossy 18y agoLinkedIn profile: updated.
- mroman 18y agoRuby Samurais? Ruby Commandos? :)
- LogicHoleFlaw 18y agoLua Lunatics
- jsmcgd 18y agoLisp Elitists
- joshwa 18y agoMore terms to avoid: * Ninja * Guru * ___ - Fu * Kick-Ass ___ * ___ Chops * Mad ___ Skill[sz]
- wheels 18y ago"Ninja" and "Rockstar" are just a dorky way of saying "We're looking for energetic, self-motivating high-achievers to work in a dynamic team on its way to the top!" In other words, nothing. If I read an ad that was looking for an expert in graph theory, or genetic algorithms, or whatever, with a strong knowledge of C++ for a small team where there were still opportunities to be treated as a co-founder ... then we're getting somewhere. The problem with "rock star" and "ninja" isn't just that they sound dumb, it's that they're usually just a way of saying, "We don't really know what we're looking for, but if you're a workaholic, it might be you."
- kirubakaran 18y ago'Wanted: Rock Star programmer for Bubblegum Pop company'
- awt 18y agoI HATE IT. It turns me off too. I wonder if it attracts certain people though?
- deleted 18y ago[deleted]
- nraynaud 18y agoIs anybody looking for a surfer dude developer ?
- vaksel 18y agothe problem is that for every good programmer there are a hundred that are just horrible, so I find that the whole "Rock Star/Guru" thing is just there to weed out the guy who has to lookup in his book how to do a hello world application
- sutro 18y agoI used to love reading John Carmack's finger-based blog (flog?). "finger @idsoftware.com" still yields the company directory listing (not sure if it's still up-to-date). With the exception of the CEO, everyone has a simple, functional title like Programmer or Artist. The humility and understatement implicit in the listing -- John Carmack, Programmer -- is something that more companies and individuals should aspire to. He isn't a rock star, ninja, or even an engineer, architect, or developer. He's just a programmer. One of the best.
- nailer 18y agoEngineer seems as humble as programmer to me.
- sutro 18y agoTo me, "engineer" and "architect" are terms originally pulled from other disciplines -- perhaps as an attempt to lend credence to the seemingly less substantial act of mere "programming." John Carmack and id software, to me, represent the disavowal of all pretense, the refusal to seek the respectability of more historically established fields. They are programmers and they are proud.
- nailer 18y agoI use 'engineer' because I do other things than programming (my job title is 'Technical Specialist'). Programming, systems administartion, writing processes for the software and reviewing architectural designs. Everything I do pretty much falls into either software or electrical (hardware) engineering, at a higher or lower level depending on the job. I don't think of mechanical and structural engineers as having a monopoly on the term.
- sethg 18y agoI am reminded of how at Bell Labs/Lucent, all the geek jobs had the title "Member of the Technical Staff" or "Distinguished Member of the Technical Staff".
- jws 18y agoWe've solved that another way. Our employees get to choose their own title (except they can't use a legally significant name or VP without permission). We have: * Head Greenskeeper * Mighty God of Thunder * Princess ... along with the usual "senior software engineer" and such. You might think that would remove the meaning from titles, but I can tell you... I'll take a Mighty God of Thunder or a Head Greenskeeper for my project any day over someone that put Senior Software Architect on their business card.
- rfunduk 18y agoI don't see the big deal. Especially if it's just a job post title. Think of it as just another way to say 'Senior' without implying any specific years of experience or worse, age.
- drewcrawford 18y agoAlternatively, are there any "fun" job titles that are actually decent? Our founders are trying to think of something to call themselves that's not as boring as CEO/CTO/etc.
- deleted 18y ago[deleted]
- MrFantsyPants 18y agoI'm Vice-President in Charge of Crayons.
- pjackson 18y agoWhen I see ads that advertise for RockStar Developers(!!!!!) I think about companies that describe themselves as "cool". If you have to say you're cool....you're probably not.
- hopeless 18y agoWay not take these titles literally? Rock star: cocaine and alcohol habit; cancels important engagements at the the last minute; often uncommunicative / in stupor; always followed around by a gaggle of loose women; Ninja: Hides from colleagues; carries deadly weapons; often surprises you with unpleasant experiences; uncommunicative; can't work with others; only ever seen at night I'm sure, if questioned, most companies using these titles are not looking for these attributes! Seriously, why not ask for "Code Vampires" or "Project Pornographers" :-)
- deleted 18y ago[deleted]
- babul 18y ago"Rock Star" in a job ad should only be used for Rock band auditions.
- huhtenberg 18y agoOn the same subject - does anyone find "a fun place to work" to be strangely unappealing ? I just can't help imagining myself rolling on the floor with laughter after seeing their existing code :) In the end it should be an interesting place to work rather than anything else.
- ryanmahoski 18y agoIf the project is in fact "very exciting," maybe you should respond in kind. Humor them. Rent a rock star costume and wear it to the interview. Gently explain how you were moved by the job description but that there was this one part which seemed pretentious to you. Be honest. Tell them you cringed when you saw the words "rock star." Then, with all the drama you can muster, tear off your uniform facade and reveal the person you are underneath. Or at least the person you are in clothing suitable for a job interview.
- SDC 18y agoI have yet to meet a 'rock star' that was particularly impressive. They're 'washed up, surreal-life cast member' quality at best. Is there even such a thing as a 'rock star' anymore? There are indie-rock bands with small but loyal followings, sure, but 'rock star'? My daughter won't have any idea what the term means. It smells of old out-of-touchness. Like COBOL! ROCK STAR COBOL PROGRAMMER WANTED!
- hugh 18y agoI think "rock star" has, and is intended to have, a certain retro charm about it. A marker that those who use it are from a more civilized age (the 1980s) when songs were sung instead of spoken, when mistreating women was something you did in the privacy of your hotel room rather than the subject of your lyrics, and when writing songs about how awesome you personally are was considered a little gauche.
- ahpeeyem 18y agowhat you're describing sounds more like a "rap star"
- hugh 18y agoSorry, perhaps I was unclear, I was trying to contrast rock stars with rap stars. Rap stars are the 2008 equivalent of rock stars, but nobody talks about rap-star programmers, because rappers aren't nearly as cool -- at least, not to the demographic which tends to dominate programming. And that's why we still aspire to be rock stars even though rock barely appears on the sales charts in this blighted age.
- MaysonL 18y agoI have a good friend who is a (budding) rock star [her band has 2 CDs out, and she just joined a Johnny Cash cover band as their June Carter Cash sing-alike). She is impressive. (Also, she is an undefeated [3-0 (albeit retired due to training injury)] professional boxer, playwright, director, and actor, Ph.D. candidate in Philosophy, and probably started at least one new project since I saw her last).
- witten 18y agoI wrote a blog post on the very topic of so-called "rock star" job postings: http://coderific.com/blog/post/564 http://coderific.com/blog/post/564
- beaudeal 18y agoi completely agree that you should probably avoid these places... at that point the company is trying too hard to be cool and therefore they are inherently uncool (to me at least) - not to mention, this probably reflects on the project / product they're building and who wants part of something that isn't awesome?? the other thing about 'rock star' and 'code ninja' that particularly turns me off is that it reminds me of that guy from payperpost who is annoying... i would really hate working for that guy, and in the few times i've seen him he never fails to say something like that... one last thing i'll add is that i saw a job posting a grockit the other day and thought it was pretty interesting...while i wasn't enamored with their 'agile development practices' the way they probably want developers to be, i really liked their openness about what they offer in terms of comfort, health, and fun. very straightforward and very honest, which is really what i'd be looking for.
- SwellJoe 18y agoI like to use the term "famously good". Unfortunately, that sets the bar extremely high. Not as high as it seems, though, since I mean, "famous in our segment of the market or for working with our preferred technologies". e.g. They've written one or more books on the topic, they headed up a popular FOSS project in the area or in the language, they wrote the definitive implementation of a really interesting concept, they have code in our language implementation (where language for us is Perl and JavaScript--so patches in the Firefox JavaScript engine or Perl 5 or Perl 6 are interesting indicators), etc. We'd even consider blogging to be a "famous" trait...though we'd want to see some code. So, by that definition there are at least 50 people on HN that I'd hire without hesitation. And by that definition, I've worked with and for at least a couple dozen famously good people in my ten years in the industry (and the longer I think about it, the longer the list gets). Interestingly, when I read "Rock Star Developer", I think, "Will work your ass off, get no equity, and get salary on par with the industry average." And when I think, "famously good", I think, "Will expect salary that is commensurate with output, will expect to work on interesting projects, and has his/her pick of jobs." And yet, the latter is who I want to hire, because I know the difference it makes in quality and productivity. If I can hire a famously good hacker for about 1.5 times the industry average, I'd consider it a good deal. But I use the term because I know what it means...I'm not sure if it'd be meaningful to folks reading our job ads. So I'd probably be more explicit about what we're looking for.
- aswanson 18y agoThe term "rockstar engineer" always struck me as a comedic oxymoron. Guess I'm not the only one. Terms like "kick ass" and "rockstar" do imply youth, however, which is not a bad thing as far as I'm concerned.
- gaius 18y agodo imply youth, however, which is not a bad thing as far as I'm concerned I am pretty sure discriminating on age is at best unethical and generally illegal in most major economies.
- aswanson 18y agoI do not condone age discrimination. I merely meant to say that those terms imply a younger company, which implies a smaller and a better work environment, in my opinion.
- jrockway 18y agoIf you want a "rock star" developer, you can't ask someone to self-select. You have to know them, and then ask them directly. I would never call myself a "rock star" (because it's a dumb expression), but I've personally never looked at a job ad and responded. I've always gotten jobs through friends that specifically said they would hire me. When you are going to spend 40 hours a week with someone, it's good for you to be friends.
- natch 18y agoI steer clear of rock star job listings too. I suspect it means they have a weak team, weak technology, or both, or some kind of tangled mess, and they hope someone can come and fix it all for them while the other team members hold their responsibility at arm's length.
- mroman 18y agoI do not want to be a rockstar - or a ninja . . . I stay away from those types of ads, although I probably should take a closer look as other posters have suggested. If we are going to get into that naming territory, I think Wizard or Sourcerer (misspelling intended) are more appropriate . . . and Bounty Hunter, Gunfighter, Sniper, Commando, Surgeon, Evil Genius, Field Marshall, and Gladiator are still not quite as silly as rockstar :)
- digiru 18y agoI think with engineers things are pretty binary. There is just 0 and 1. Some engineers can just follow (0) and other that lead (1). The (1) are the ones that just get things done. The (0) are the one that need some coaxing to get finish line. The whole idea or a rockstar, ninja is BS. It is like a project 0 you failed and are not complete 1 you've met the deadline. If you want a rockstar goto hollywood. If you want ninjas goto japan. If you want an engineer goto colos, star wars movies, your local tech meet ups.
- sethg 18y agoMy wife asked if organizations really advertise for "rock star" programmers, so I did a search on the local Craigslist and got four hits. The first link I followed contained the following definition of "rock star": [quote] FileMaker Certified Developer. (If you’re not yet certified, we’ll get you there!) Ability to install and configure FileMaker Server Advanced; knowledge of ODBC access and custom web publishing. Experience managing software development projects. Experience with SQL, javascript, PHP, Quickbooks integration. Computer science degree or certification. [unquote] Res ipsa loquitur. The ad on the second link I followed said that the company's software "performs like a rock star". I'm not sure I would consider this a good thing.
- deleted 18y ago[deleted]
- josgraha 18y agoMan these are some awesome comments. "Self proclaimed" Rockstars != craftsman. Those who earned the title. Guido vonRossum et. al. are having their five minutes, let them have it, they took the risks. You can't blame the recruiter though, if they are looking to bring cocky, blowhards to the interview table and wow the upper "hangers-on" with their talk game. I think recruiting, much like a good programming environment needs to take bad decisions out of the equation or minimize the collateral damage thereof. Oh well, such is the state of recruiting and such is the ever changing complexion of software development. Time to go back to the guild and apprenticeship system. Any nobles out there? :p