8 ms·

UK-EU trade deal refers to Netscape Communicator 4 as “modern email software”

107 points by samwillis 6y ago

sideshowb 6y ago
Well the aim of Brexit was to take the UK back to the 1970s so this shows we're halfway there right?
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  The production line for the BBC B is firing up right now, meanwhile I'm getting my order for an Austin Allegro in before the rush.
- tobbob 6y ago
  Err no, if we wanted to go back to the 70, we had the perfect chance to do that by voting for Corbyn, and he lost by a landslide.
- thu2111 6y ago
  This is EU law, transposed into the agreement to just avoid arguing with the EU about it when there are more important things. The whole point of Brexit is that if wanted such rules can be diverged from now, or better, just repealed entirely. Whilst that wouldn't help when communicating with the EU, it'd avoid dumb requirements like SHA1 being imposed on other projects that don't involve Europe.
mongol 6y ago
Well if it is good enough for git...
- orra 6y ago
  It's not. Git is sloowly migrating away from SHA1.
  - 1over137 6y ago
    But hasn't yet. Thus, it's good enough for git today.
gerdesj 6y ago
Read all about it: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/agreements-reached-between-the-united-kingdom-of-great-britain-and-northern-ireland-and-the-european-union https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/agreements-reache...
- Gwypaas 6y ago
  Good summaries from the EU side: Short easy infographic: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/files/attachment/867615/EU_Membership_benefits_two_columns.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/files/attach... 6 page summary: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/6_pager_final.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info...
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    That infographic is about as unbiased and trustworthy as the feature comparison table on a software company's website, for about the same reasons. There are obviously going to be both upsides and downsides to Brexit, for both the UK and EU. It would be nice if just for once in the whole multi-year fiasco we could debate them based on facts and logical reasoning, and neither obviously one-sided summaries like that nor the blatant fear-mongering from the hardcore Brexiteers all over the news this week are going to achieve that.
viraptor 6y ago
It's lifted from the original from over a decade ago: https://mobile.twitter.com/sand2drn/status/1343260855488684032 https://mobile.twitter.com/sand2drn/status/13432608554886840... I hope nobody expected every single copied document to be analysed and refreshed for this agreement. A lot of existing documents will be copied into a new deal as they exist today.
- Lev1a 6y ago
  Politicians and lawyers are paid well enough and then some for us the people to expect due diligence, especially for such an important piece of legislation that's to be in effect for the foreseeable future.
  - ngcc_hk 6y ago
    The basic pay of Uk politicians are not that high.
    - halo 6y ago
      The basic salary for a UK MP is £81,932, with additional pay for additional responsibilities (such as being a minister). The median UK salary is around £30,000.
      - Ichthypresbyter 6y ago
        For comparison- the MP's salary is similar to that of a military OF-4 (Commander, Lieutenant-Colonel or Wing Commander), a secondary school headteacher, or an NHS consultant (specialist doctor with at least 8-10 years experience post qualification).
        dmitriid 6y ago
        And this means... what exactly? That we should expect MPs to perform their duties with the same diligence that we expect from military commanders, teachers and specialist doctors? Or that military commanders, teachers and specialist doctors should make rash uninformed decisions because they are underpaid?
llimos 6y ago
Kind of missing the point. They're saying there's no excuse not to use s/MIME since it's in all modern software, and the fact that the modern software they mention isn't so modern any more only strengthens the point, not weakens it.
- iso1210 6y ago
  They then enforce the use of SHA-1 hashes
  - cik 6y ago
    SHA-2 or higher. SHA-1 is broken now.
    - mkl 6y ago
      No, they insist on SHA-1: "the hash algorithm SHA-1 shall be applied."
      - cik 6y ago
        I'm saying it's time to put SHA-1 to bed.
        mkl 6y ago
        Yes, we technical people are aware of that. The point is that this new agreement is already long out of date and inadvertently attempting to prevent such progress.
nottorp 6y ago
Question is, they signed off on how much other outdated/useless crap that we HN readers aren't qualified to comment on?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
raverbashing 6y ago
It's a copy-paste mistake. Laws, treaties, etc have no "source code" (that "runs" on bureaucrats and judges - with various results) and they have the worse (and I mean really) the worse diff system possible. But that's how things go
ngcc_hk 6y ago
1024 bit encryption...
mkl 6y ago
Why is this kind of technical detail in such an agreement? It's inevitably going to go out of date very quickly. Do they have such detail for every industry?
- makomk 6y ago
  Because that's fundamentally what the EU does - it comes up with long, detailed agreements that specify the exact technical details of things that will sometimes go out of date soon. That is what it, as an institution with a whole bunch of well-paid employees, exists to do. As I understand it, this is just extending an agreement the UK was already a part of when it was part of the EU to the country after it leaves, complete with SHA-1, 1024-bit RSA, and references to Netscape Navigator 4. Also, I reckon that if these same issues came up in the context of the in-EU version of the agreement, this would be widely portrayed as an example of cynical Euroskeptics taking advantage of people's cluelessness and making a big fuss about nothing, like bendy bananas. It'd be one of the things people relied on to argue that Brexit supporters had just been tricked by the press. Can't see that happening with its use as an anti-Brexit talking point, even though that's substantially more misleading. The entire mainstream narrative around Brexit is just so cynical...
  - vmilner 6y ago
    Yes, the alternative pitch would presumably be that EU standards (which the agreement is (I suspect) copying for now) aren't being updated fast enough because of the bureaucracy of 27 countries slowing things down, even for uncontroversial changes, and on its own the UK could move more quickly.
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    > it comes up with long, detailed agreements that specify the exact technical details of things Speaking generically, too specific and things get outdated, too generic and there are large margins for discussion. For laws and treaties that should last decades. That's the main issue.
    - thu2111 6y ago
wicket 6y ago
Not really surprising that they are recommending SHA-1. It's well known that the UK is a nanny state that hates encryption.
intricatedetail 6y ago
Bring back MySpace and ban Facebook!
- Zenst 6y ago
  Oh I think they looked at that https://euobserver.com/news/26242 https://euobserver.com/news/26242
jpswade 6y ago
Which document is this from? They do appear in quite a few articles from 2008: - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eudn/2008/616/annex/chapter/1/division/5/division/5.4/adopted https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eudn/2008/616/annex/chapter/1... - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/ https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/ - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480129/prum_business_and_implementation_case.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... - https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-9152-2008-ADD-1/en/pdf https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-9152-2008-A...
vmilner 6y ago
It seems plausible that this is the current EU standard on encrypting DNA profiles, in which case the agreement is correct (in some sense) to mirror it. Once the EU (hopefully soon) updates its standards, the UK will then have the option to decide whether to follow or not (regulatory divergence) - and presumably the ERG (tory party brexiteers) will not die in a ditch over a move away from SHA-1...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
upofadown 6y ago
Yeah that part should be updated. It is still valuable in that it specifies that there should be some sort of minimum standards for secure data transfer. Even what is specified there is way better than nothing.
Kreotiko 6y ago
It is probably to have it aligned with the existing regulation on the matter

107 points by samwillis 6y ago

sideshowb 6y ago

Well the aim of Brexit was to take the UK back to the 1970s so this shows we're halfway there right?

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
The production line for the BBC B is firing up right now, meanwhile I'm getting my order for an Austin Allegro in before the rush.
tobbob 6y ago
Err no, if we wanted to go back to the 70, we had the perfect chance to do that by voting for Corbyn, and he lost by a landslide.
thu2111 6y ago
This is EU law, transposed into the agreement to just avoid arguing with the EU about it when there are more important things. The whole point of Brexit is that if wanted such rules can be diverged from now, or better, just repealed entirely. Whilst that wouldn't help when communicating with the EU, it'd avoid dumb requirements like SHA1 being imposed on other projects that don't involve Europe.

mongol 6y ago

Well if it is good enough for git...

orra 6y ago
It's not. Git is sloowly migrating away from SHA1.
- 1over137 6y ago
  But hasn't yet. Thus, it's good enough for git today.

gerdesj 6y ago

Read all about it: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/agreements-reached-between-the-united-kingdom-of-great-britain-and-northern-ireland-and-the-european-union https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/agreements-reache...

Gwypaas 6y ago
Good summaries from the EU side: Short easy infographic: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/files/attachment/867615/EU_Membership_benefits_two_columns.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/files/attach... 6 page summary: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/6_pager_final.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info...
- Silhouette 6y ago
  That infographic is about as unbiased and trustworthy as the feature comparison table on a software company's website, for about the same reasons. There are obviously going to be both upsides and downsides to Brexit, for both the UK and EU. It would be nice if just for once in the whole multi-year fiasco we could debate them based on facts and logical reasoning, and neither obviously one-sided summaries like that nor the blatant fear-mongering from the hardcore Brexiteers all over the news this week are going to achieve that.

viraptor 6y ago

It's lifted from the original from over a decade ago: https://mobile.twitter.com/sand2drn/status/1343260855488684032 https://mobile.twitter.com/sand2drn/status/13432608554886840... I hope nobody expected every single copied document to be analysed and refreshed for this agreement. A lot of existing documents will be copied into a new deal as they exist today.

Lev1a 6y ago
Politicians and lawyers are paid well enough and then some for us the people to expect due diligence, especially for such an important piece of legislation that's to be in effect for the foreseeable future.
- ngcc_hk 6y ago
  The basic pay of Uk politicians are not that high.
  - halo 6y ago
    The basic salary for a UK MP is £81,932, with additional pay for additional responsibilities (such as being a minister). The median UK salary is around £30,000.
    - Ichthypresbyter 6y ago
      For comparison- the MP's salary is similar to that of a military OF-4 (Commander, Lieutenant-Colonel or Wing Commander), a secondary school headteacher, or an NHS consultant (specialist doctor with at least 8-10 years experience post qualification).
      - dmitriid 6y ago
        And this means... what exactly? That we should expect MPs to perform their duties with the same diligence that we expect from military commanders, teachers and specialist doctors? Or that military commanders, teachers and specialist doctors should make rash uninformed decisions because they are underpaid?

llimos 6y ago

Kind of missing the point. They're saying there's no excuse not to use s/MIME since it's in all modern software, and the fact that the modern software they mention isn't so modern any more only strengthens the point, not weakens it.

iso1210 6y ago
They then enforce the use of SHA-1 hashes
- cik 6y ago
  SHA-2 or higher. SHA-1 is broken now.
  - mkl 6y ago
    No, they insist on SHA-1: "the hash algorithm SHA-1 shall be applied."
    - cik 6y ago
      I'm saying it's time to put SHA-1 to bed.
      - mkl 6y ago
        Yes, we technical people are aware of that. The point is that this new agreement is already long out of date and inadvertently attempting to prevent such progress.

nottorp 6y ago

Question is, they signed off on how much other outdated/useless crap that we HN readers aren't qualified to comment on?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

raverbashing 6y ago

It's a copy-paste mistake. Laws, treaties, etc have no "source code" (that "runs" on bureaucrats and judges - with various results) and they have the worse (and I mean really) the worse diff system possible. But that's how things go

ngcc_hk 6y ago

1024 bit encryption...

mkl 6y ago

Why is this kind of technical detail in such an agreement? It's inevitably going to go out of date very quickly. Do they have such detail for every industry?

makomk 6y ago
Because that's fundamentally what the EU does - it comes up with long, detailed agreements that specify the exact technical details of things that will sometimes go out of date soon. That is what it, as an institution with a whole bunch of well-paid employees, exists to do. As I understand it, this is just extending an agreement the UK was already a part of when it was part of the EU to the country after it leaves, complete with SHA-1, 1024-bit RSA, and references to Netscape Navigator 4. Also, I reckon that if these same issues came up in the context of the in-EU version of the agreement, this would be widely portrayed as an example of cynical Euroskeptics taking advantage of people's cluelessness and making a big fuss about nothing, like bendy bananas. It'd be one of the things people relied on to argue that Brexit supporters had just been tricked by the press. Can't see that happening with its use as an anti-Brexit talking point, even though that's substantially more misleading. The entire mainstream narrative around Brexit is just so cynical...
- vmilner 6y ago
  Yes, the alternative pitch would presumably be that EU standards (which the agreement is (I suspect) copying for now) aren't being updated fast enough because of the bureaucracy of 27 countries slowing things down, even for uncontroversial changes, and on its own the UK could move more quickly.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  > it comes up with long, detailed agreements that specify the exact technical details of things Speaking generically, too specific and things get outdated, too generic and there are large margins for discussion. For laws and treaties that should last decades. That's the main issue.
  - thu2111 6y ago

wicket 6y ago

Not really surprising that they are recommending SHA-1. It's well known that the UK is a nanny state that hates encryption.

intricatedetail 6y ago

Bring back MySpace and ban Facebook!

Zenst 6y ago
Oh I think they looked at that https://euobserver.com/news/26242 https://euobserver.com/news/26242

jpswade 6y ago

Which document is this from? They do appear in quite a few articles from 2008: - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eudn/2008/616/annex/chapter/1/division/5/division/5.4/adopted https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eudn/2008/616/annex/chapter/1... - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/ https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/ - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480129/prum_business_and_implementation_case.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... - https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-9152-2008-ADD-1/en/pdf https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-9152-2008-A...

vmilner 6y ago

It seems plausible that this is the current EU standard on encrypting DNA profiles, in which case the agreement is correct (in some sense) to mirror it. Once the EU (hopefully soon) updates its standards, the UK will then have the option to decide whether to follow or not (regulatory divergence) - and presumably the ERG (tory party brexiteers) will not die in a ditch over a move away from SHA-1...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

upofadown 6y ago

Yeah that part should be updated. It is still valuable in that it specifies that there should be some sort of minimum standards for secure data transfer. Even what is specified there is way better than nothing.

Kreotiko 6y ago

It is probably to have it aligned with the existing regulation on the matter