4 ms·

Schooling Was for the Industrial Era, Unschooling Is for the Future

9 points by known 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
eesmith 6y ago
That sort of argument - "why are we still schooling kids like we did in the 19th Century?" - sets off my B.S. alarm. Just about every education disrupter^wreformer uses that line. And it's wrong. See http://hackeducation.com/2015/04/25/factory-model http://hackeducation.com/2015/04/25/factory-model on "The Invented History of 'The Factory Model of Education'".
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- emteycz 6y ago
  It's not wrong. Compulsory school attendance was established in Austria-Hungary by Maria Theresa and while these schools were different, just 50 years passed and the schools looked almost exactly like they do today, because of Prussian pressure. Prussian schools invented the system of sitting in a classroom, learning a topic by drill and then exams, and we still do that today. The schools here in former Austria-Hungary and Prussia are actually proud of this heritage... There are many books (both novels and not) from that time period that are also describing the schools, you can read one for yourself.
  - eesmith 6y ago
    I don't understand your comment. What is not wrong? Maria Teresa's reign started in 13 September 1745, yes? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_Un... : > All the New England colonies required towns to set up schools, and many did so. In 1642 the Massachusetts Bay Colony made "proper" education compulsory The link I gave points to several other educational models in the US before the importation of the Prussian model, and points out: > In fact, the “Prussian model” superseded an education system that actually did look like a factory. The monitorial system and its variants the Lancaster, the Bell, and the Madras systems, involved schools that were housed in large warehouses – larger often than many of the nascent factories at the time – with hundreds of students in one massive classroom with one teacher. Students were grouped (30 or so together) not by age but by reading proficiency, with more advanced students – “monitors” – assigned to tutor and train the others. adding also that "the major innovation of the Prussian model was in levying a tax to fund compulsory schooling, not in establishing a method for instruction". I also don't know what "exactly like they do today", given that my experience in the US school system during the 1970s and 1980s seems rather different than what I read about during, say, the Depression era or the late 1800s.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      > > All the New England colonies required towns to set up schools, and many did so. In 1642 the Massachusetts Bay Colony made "proper" education compulsory That didn't mean compulsory daily school attendance. It worked differently at the time - mostly religious figures were teaching children every Saturday. Maria Theresa was the first to set up compulsory daily school attendance. > > In fact, the “Prussian model” superseded an education system that actually did look like a factory. The monitorial system and its variants the Lancaster, the Bell, and the Madras systems, involved schools that were housed in large warehouses – larger often than many of the nascent factories at the time – with hundreds of students in one massive classroom with one teacher. Students were grouped (30 or so together) not by age but by reading proficiency, with more advanced students – “monitors” – assigned to tutor and train the others. Yes, and this Prussian model is exactly what education looks like in Europe today. Might be different in the USA, I am European so I don't know. That the previous model was even worse doesn't change anything about our today's comparison to factories. Factories changed too. > adding also that "the major innovation of the Prussian model was in levying a tax to fund compulsory schooling, not in establishing a method for instruction". If the schools and literature here in former Austria-Hungary and Prussia are to be trusted, this is wrong. The Prussians did this and a lot more to improve their military, and the Austrian-Hungarians did it for the same reason as the Prussians were beginning to outcompete them. > I also don't know what "exactly like they do today", given that my experience in the US school system during the 1970s and 1980s seems rather different than what I read about during, say, the Depression era or the late 1800s. Lucky you.
      - eesmith 6y ago
        > That didn't mean compulsory daily school attendance "Compulsory" meant that children were required to be educated, either by parents or by a school, in reading. In Massachusetts, towns with at least 50 families were required to fund (either by tax or by school fees) a primary school. Towns with at least 100 families had to fund a grammar school that could prepare children for Harvard, which at that time was a religious school. See http://lburlbaw.cehd.tamu.edu/edci658/webb%20hist%20of%20am%20ed.pdf http://lburlbaw.cehd.tamu.edu/edci658/webb%20hist%20of%20am%... page 93 for what a typical school master's duties were, in this case for Dorchester. You can see it was not once-a-week education. Note that it was not compulsory to attend grammar school. But from what little I could tell, the children who went to primary school were going in winter, and not just one day per week. So I think you are talking about your country's historical experience? But this article is about the US, and the US interpretation of the Prussian model, and as I point out, viewed through a specific lens that libertarians and charter- and home-school proponents often use - which somehow seems to minimize the parts of history which contradict their viewpoints. BTW, the US allows home schooling, so does not have 'compulsory daily school attendance', strictly speaking. > this Prussian model is exactly what education looks like in Europe today I have no idea of what you are talking about. I have a friend who teaches at a comprehensive school in England. They do not have 100s of students in one classroom with one teacher. I know Germans and Swedes with school-age children, and their children are also not taught this way. When you write "this is wrong", what do you mean? What were the other innovations on the Prussian model compared to other systems? What you write seems to concern the downstream effect of education reform on, for example, the military. But that's a different aspect than what the quote was about.
gregjor 6y ago
The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher, by John Taylor Gatto https://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html https://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

9 points by known 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

That sort of argument - "why are we still schooling kids like we did in the 19th Century?" - sets off my B.S. alarm. Just about every education disrupter^wreformer uses that line. And it's wrong. See http://hackeducation.com/2015/04/25/factory-model http://hackeducation.com/2015/04/25/factory-model on "The Invented History of 'The Factory Model of Education'".

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
emteycz 6y ago
It's not wrong. Compulsory school attendance was established in Austria-Hungary by Maria Theresa and while these schools were different, just 50 years passed and the schools looked almost exactly like they do today, because of Prussian pressure. Prussian schools invented the system of sitting in a classroom, learning a topic by drill and then exams, and we still do that today. The schools here in former Austria-Hungary and Prussia are actually proud of this heritage... There are many books (both novels and not) from that time period that are also describing the schools, you can read one for yourself.
- eesmith 6y ago
  I don't understand your comment. What is not wrong? Maria Teresa's reign started in 13 September 1745, yes? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_Un... : > All the New England colonies required towns to set up schools, and many did so. In 1642 the Massachusetts Bay Colony made "proper" education compulsory The link I gave points to several other educational models in the US before the importation of the Prussian model, and points out: > In fact, the “Prussian model” superseded an education system that actually did look like a factory. The monitorial system and its variants the Lancaster, the Bell, and the Madras systems, involved schools that were housed in large warehouses – larger often than many of the nascent factories at the time – with hundreds of students in one massive classroom with one teacher. Students were grouped (30 or so together) not by age but by reading proficiency, with more advanced students – “monitors” – assigned to tutor and train the others. adding also that "the major innovation of the Prussian model was in levying a tax to fund compulsory schooling, not in establishing a method for instruction". I also don't know what "exactly like they do today", given that my experience in the US school system during the 1970s and 1980s seems rather different than what I read about during, say, the Depression era or the late 1800s.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    > > All the New England colonies required towns to set up schools, and many did so. In 1642 the Massachusetts Bay Colony made "proper" education compulsory That didn't mean compulsory daily school attendance. It worked differently at the time - mostly religious figures were teaching children every Saturday. Maria Theresa was the first to set up compulsory daily school attendance. > > In fact, the “Prussian model” superseded an education system that actually did look like a factory. The monitorial system and its variants the Lancaster, the Bell, and the Madras systems, involved schools that were housed in large warehouses – larger often than many of the nascent factories at the time – with hundreds of students in one massive classroom with one teacher. Students were grouped (30 or so together) not by age but by reading proficiency, with more advanced students – “monitors” – assigned to tutor and train the others. Yes, and this Prussian model is exactly what education looks like in Europe today. Might be different in the USA, I am European so I don't know. That the previous model was even worse doesn't change anything about our today's comparison to factories. Factories changed too. > adding also that "the major innovation of the Prussian model was in levying a tax to fund compulsory schooling, not in establishing a method for instruction". If the schools and literature here in former Austria-Hungary and Prussia are to be trusted, this is wrong. The Prussians did this and a lot more to improve their military, and the Austrian-Hungarians did it for the same reason as the Prussians were beginning to outcompete them. > I also don't know what "exactly like they do today", given that my experience in the US school system during the 1970s and 1980s seems rather different than what I read about during, say, the Depression era or the late 1800s. Lucky you.
    - eesmith 6y ago
      > That didn't mean compulsory daily school attendance "Compulsory" meant that children were required to be educated, either by parents or by a school, in reading. In Massachusetts, towns with at least 50 families were required to fund (either by tax or by school fees) a primary school. Towns with at least 100 families had to fund a grammar school that could prepare children for Harvard, which at that time was a religious school. See http://lburlbaw.cehd.tamu.edu/edci658/webb%20hist%20of%20am%20ed.pdf http://lburlbaw.cehd.tamu.edu/edci658/webb%20hist%20of%20am%... page 93 for what a typical school master's duties were, in this case for Dorchester. You can see it was not once-a-week education. Note that it was not compulsory to attend grammar school. But from what little I could tell, the children who went to primary school were going in winter, and not just one day per week. So I think you are talking about your country's historical experience? But this article is about the US, and the US interpretation of the Prussian model, and as I point out, viewed through a specific lens that libertarians and charter- and home-school proponents often use - which somehow seems to minimize the parts of history which contradict their viewpoints. BTW, the US allows home schooling, so does not have 'compulsory daily school attendance', strictly speaking. > this Prussian model is exactly what education looks like in Europe today I have no idea of what you are talking about. I have a friend who teaches at a comprehensive school in England. They do not have 100s of students in one classroom with one teacher. I know Germans and Swedes with school-age children, and their children are also not taught this way. When you write "this is wrong", what do you mean? What were the other innovations on the Prussian model compared to other systems? What you write seems to concern the downstream effect of education reform on, for example, the military. But that's a different aspect than what the quote was about.

gregjor 6y ago

The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher, by John Taylor Gatto https://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html https://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html