5 ms·

I’ve been quite frustrated that both of the houses I’ve lived in in the past decade have used “communicating” systems, meaning that the products exploring this

I’ve been quite frustrated that both of the houses I’ve lived in in the past decade have used “communicating” systems, meaning that the products exploring this space are out of reach. HVAC professionals describe these systems “Ferraris” of thermostat control, but their remote features, API, etc are awful - I’m stuck with what I can only describe as a touch thermostat made by the lowest bidder.

craz8 6y ago
I would pay good money to get access to the API my communicating thermostat uses - the Trane device is terrible in many ways that basic software updates could fix
hedora 6y ago
Yeah; ours has a variable speed compressor and variable speed fan (it is also a heat pump). The wire protocol is a closely guarded trade secret from what I can tell. The manufacturer sells a custom EcoBee to work with it, but their own custom EcoBee can only set a few fixed speeds instead of variable speed. This market is ripe for disruption. Sell me something with a 30 year warranty, and plans to wire it to a raspberry pi. I’ll pay twice as much for that as I would for anything with a sub 20 year warranty. Since California is close to banning new natural gas installations, focus on making a heat pump that’ll last forever. Military grade limited access compressors exist and aren’t expensive compared to having someone in Silicon Valley perform a house call. Also, old air conditioners regularly lasted 30+ years, so this is a solved problem, and the patents have probably expired. I’ll probably buy your weird proprietary thermostat because I’m lazy, but if it sucks badly enough, I’ll know there are decent third party options.
- craz8 6y ago
  My heat pump was sold as having “700 levels” (that’s 30-100% in 0.1% increments), but the Nexia software shows unit % and also Level 1 or Level 2. Who knows if it’s actually using the fine grain control I paid a lot of money for? My first thermostat also died in the first year when the power went out. What happens in 10 years when it’s no longer made? I have to dump the whole system and start again? Also whole features are poorly implemented - Quiet Mode limits speed at night, but not until after startup (or, I think when defrosting) I’m a bit unhappy with Trane/Nexia at the moment and would absolutely not recommend
  - rainbowzootsuit 6y ago
    The problem of proprietary systems and single vendor lock-in are enough for at least some segments of the US military to ban their installation. https://vrfrejected.org/case-studies/ https://vrfrejected.org/case-studies/ The availability of multi-speed or variable speed compressor (inverter drive) is extremely limited in the residential market space outside of anything proprietary because there isn't enough cost flexibility. It doesn't help that American manufacturers are at least 20 years behind the Japanese and Korean makers on developing these. It generally doesn't make sense for the manufacturers that have the tech to make open hardware systems for this market segment when you're only talking about $1000/ton for residential hardware. The lock in is more valuable than the initial sale is my guess. I think one could likely home brew an open-hardware variable speed system by retrofitting a standard three phase compressor and variable frequency drive (see Jeremy Fielding's youtube channel—linked below) to their residential unit but it is hard to find a small enough three phase compressor and wouldn't probably be mass marketable because even single stage units are often good enough for most residential applications. Future building code adoption will probably have an influence on this particularly in the areas where ventilation requirements are tightened. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_SLthyNX_ivd-dmsFgmJVg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_SLthyNX_ivd-dmsFgmJVg
- alacombe 6y ago
  > focus on making a heat pump that’ll last forever Nothing last forever.
  - hedora 6y ago
    It just needs to last longer than me. Bonus points if the kids don’t need to touch it.
    - alacombe 6y ago
      You really don't seem to know how the physical world works. And your "military grade" requirement is utter horseshit, as things break all the time in the military...
- alacombe 6y ago
  > Also, old air conditioners regularly lasted 30+ years, so this is a solved problem, and the patents have probably expired. Survivorship bias argument. Also, EPA has much stringent standard, my 50 years old AC using probably has a shitty 6 SEER (compared to 22 SEER for the best units these days), refrigerant has changed too, manufacturing tolerances are much tighter now, higher demand and lower prices has probably caused material quality to plummet as well...

craz8 6y ago

I would pay good money to get access to the API my communicating thermostat uses - the Trane device is terrible in many ways that basic software updates could fix

hedora 6y ago

Yeah; ours has a variable speed compressor and variable speed fan (it is also a heat pump). The wire protocol is a closely guarded trade secret from what I can tell. The manufacturer sells a custom EcoBee to work with it, but their own custom EcoBee can only set a few fixed speeds instead of variable speed. This market is ripe for disruption. Sell me something with a 30 year warranty, and plans to wire it to a raspberry pi. I’ll pay twice as much for that as I would for anything with a sub 20 year warranty. Since California is close to banning new natural gas installations, focus on making a heat pump that’ll last forever. Military grade limited access compressors exist and aren’t expensive compared to having someone in Silicon Valley perform a house call. Also, old air conditioners regularly lasted 30+ years, so this is a solved problem, and the patents have probably expired. I’ll probably buy your weird proprietary thermostat because I’m lazy, but if it sucks badly enough, I’ll know there are decent third party options.

craz8 6y ago
My heat pump was sold as having “700 levels” (that’s 30-100% in 0.1% increments), but the Nexia software shows unit % and also Level 1 or Level 2. Who knows if it’s actually using the fine grain control I paid a lot of money for? My first thermostat also died in the first year when the power went out. What happens in 10 years when it’s no longer made? I have to dump the whole system and start again? Also whole features are poorly implemented - Quiet Mode limits speed at night, but not until after startup (or, I think when defrosting) I’m a bit unhappy with Trane/Nexia at the moment and would absolutely not recommend
- rainbowzootsuit 6y ago
  The problem of proprietary systems and single vendor lock-in are enough for at least some segments of the US military to ban their installation. https://vrfrejected.org/case-studies/ https://vrfrejected.org/case-studies/ The availability of multi-speed or variable speed compressor (inverter drive) is extremely limited in the residential market space outside of anything proprietary because there isn't enough cost flexibility. It doesn't help that American manufacturers are at least 20 years behind the Japanese and Korean makers on developing these. It generally doesn't make sense for the manufacturers that have the tech to make open hardware systems for this market segment when you're only talking about $1000/ton for residential hardware. The lock in is more valuable than the initial sale is my guess. I think one could likely home brew an open-hardware variable speed system by retrofitting a standard three phase compressor and variable frequency drive (see Jeremy Fielding's youtube channel—linked below) to their residential unit but it is hard to find a small enough three phase compressor and wouldn't probably be mass marketable because even single stage units are often good enough for most residential applications. Future building code adoption will probably have an influence on this particularly in the areas where ventilation requirements are tightened. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_SLthyNX_ivd-dmsFgmJVg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_SLthyNX_ivd-dmsFgmJVg
alacombe 6y ago
> focus on making a heat pump that’ll last forever Nothing last forever.
- hedora 6y ago
  It just needs to last longer than me. Bonus points if the kids don’t need to touch it.
  - alacombe 6y ago
    You really don't seem to know how the physical world works. And your "military grade" requirement is utter horseshit, as things break all the time in the military...
alacombe 6y ago
> Also, old air conditioners regularly lasted 30+ years, so this is a solved problem, and the patents have probably expired. Survivorship bias argument. Also, EPA has much stringent standard, my 50 years old AC using probably has a shitty 6 SEER (compared to 22 SEER for the best units these days), refrigerant has changed too, manufacturing tolerances are much tighter now, higher demand and lower prices has probably caused material quality to plummet as well...