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The problem is there is no better. Countries,names and organisations may differ, but it's more or less the same everywhere

deleted 6y ago
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corytheboyd 6y ago
This. If you have the chance, talk to people, real people, from other countries. At least in my case, this is exactly what they all told me.
humanlion87 6y ago
Completely agree with this statement. It's just human nature. I come from a third world country where bribery and corruption is a way of life and everyone just accepts it. When I moved to the US I thought that problem doesn't exist since it's a developed country and things seem to function smoothly. It took me a few years to realize how mistaken I was. Corruption and bribery just happen in a more "legal" (ex: lobbying), "organized" and "clean" manner :)
robocat 6y ago
> The problem is there is no better. Ouch: “America is #1” is such an insidious belief system. Have you really opened your eyes to how some countries have much, much better governing systems? Many Scandinavian countries have a higher population than most US states, yet somehow they seem to function better in so many dimensions. I am from New Zealand and the worst interaction I have had with a government department for many many years was a breeze to deal with: competent phone help talking to a real person, emailing directly with staff, issue resolved. I am very confident the problematic process will be fixed properly within the next few years, because my experience is that every system in NZ I have ever had to deal with eventually gets fixed. For example tax returns are a breeze, and get easier each year. New Zealand has a higher population than 50% of the US states, and we are in the boondocks of the world transportation wise, yet somehow we manage to get our shit together. Of course NZ has problems of overruns, collusion, defalcation, bribery, and corruption. Yet somehow they seem to be becoming less common... it seems to me our government keeps improving on multiple dimensions. The biggest disappointments I have had with my government have been due to pressures from the US (five eyes, copyright “reform”, trade interference, political interference, war on drugs, propaganda). I regularly read a story about the US where a structural problem just never gets resolved, or even worse, it is decaying year by year. I have travelled the world, and you can cherry-pick areas where the US is resoundingly better than NZ (or the Scandinavian country of your choice)... I am talking about an overall measurement of functioning governance and society.
- zepto 6y ago
  “I have travelled the world, and you can cherry-pick areas where the US is resoundingly better than NZ” The entirety of NZ has a population comparable to the size of a large metro area in the US. It seems like the cherry picking is being done by you. It’s completely meaningless to compare it to the US as if it were similar. If you compare the US to Europe as a whole, you’ll find just as many problems, and the comparison with individual smaller states would be equally meaningless. You’ll find this is even true with things like Covid.
  - robocat 6y ago
    > The entirety of NZ has a population comparable to the size of a large metro area in the US A meaningless cliché argument. Hawaii, New Hampshire, Maine, Montana, Rhode Island, Delaware , South Dakota, North Dakota, Alaska, District of Columbia, Vermont, and Wyoming all have less population than metropolitan Auckland... so do I get to make sweeping generalisations about those states based on that? There are 32 states with smaller populations than NZ. There are 44 states that are smaller in size than NZ. The Tokyo Major Metropolitan Area has about the same population as the most populous state of California - so what?
    - zepto 6y ago
      “so do I get to make sweeping generalization about those states based on that” If you did, that would be just as meaningless. Why do you want to make sweeping generalizations? What’s your point? There exists an island nation of ~5 million is better run than many parts America but worse than the best parts? What generalization do you seriously think you can make from that?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - robocat 6y ago
        My original point is “The problem is there is no better” is a defeatist attitude: there is a lot better. Every other country in the world manages to model their own policies by using other countries of smaller or larger size, that have wildly different societies and governance. Each state government in the United States holds legal and administrative jurisdiction within its bounds, yet somehow US states are special, and other countries have nothing worthwhile copying. Almost every time someone says that other countries manage to do something better, the same tired canards are brought out in attack, usually with the undercurrent of “USA #1”, therefore any other way of doing things is wrong or inapplicable. I don’t normally argue the point, because the counter-arguments like yours are so predictable and so spectacularly irrelevant. You mentioned Covid. Watching the arc of excuses made by citizens of the US has been a black comedy: it started with excuses about how China managed to control Covid, it moved on to different excuses when some other Asian countries managed low death counts, then the excuses changed again once some first world countries got their shit together. The underlying premise was “USA #1” therefore if another country is doing better then let’s pipe up with a irrelevant excuse meme. The pattern is tragically hilarious.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

corytheboyd 6y ago

This. If you have the chance, talk to people, real people, from other countries. At least in my case, this is exactly what they all told me.

humanlion87 6y ago

Completely agree with this statement. It's just human nature. I come from a third world country where bribery and corruption is a way of life and everyone just accepts it. When I moved to the US I thought that problem doesn't exist since it's a developed country and things seem to function smoothly. It took me a few years to realize how mistaken I was. Corruption and bribery just happen in a more "legal" (ex: lobbying), "organized" and "clean" manner :)

robocat 6y ago

> The problem is there is no better. Ouch: “America is #1” is such an insidious belief system. Have you really opened your eyes to how some countries have much, much better governing systems? Many Scandinavian countries have a higher population than most US states, yet somehow they seem to function better in so many dimensions. I am from New Zealand and the worst interaction I have had with a government department for many many years was a breeze to deal with: competent phone help talking to a real person, emailing directly with staff, issue resolved. I am very confident the problematic process will be fixed properly within the next few years, because my experience is that every system in NZ I have ever had to deal with eventually gets fixed. For example tax returns are a breeze, and get easier each year. New Zealand has a higher population than 50% of the US states, and we are in the boondocks of the world transportation wise, yet somehow we manage to get our shit together. Of course NZ has problems of overruns, collusion, defalcation, bribery, and corruption. Yet somehow they seem to be becoming less common... it seems to me our government keeps improving on multiple dimensions. The biggest disappointments I have had with my government have been due to pressures from the US (five eyes, copyright “reform”, trade interference, political interference, war on drugs, propaganda). I regularly read a story about the US where a structural problem just never gets resolved, or even worse, it is decaying year by year. I have travelled the world, and you can cherry-pick areas where the US is resoundingly better than NZ (or the Scandinavian country of your choice)... I am talking about an overall measurement of functioning governance and society.

zepto 6y ago
“I have travelled the world, and you can cherry-pick areas where the US is resoundingly better than NZ” The entirety of NZ has a population comparable to the size of a large metro area in the US. It seems like the cherry picking is being done by you. It’s completely meaningless to compare it to the US as if it were similar. If you compare the US to Europe as a whole, you’ll find just as many problems, and the comparison with individual smaller states would be equally meaningless. You’ll find this is even true with things like Covid.
- robocat 6y ago
  > The entirety of NZ has a population comparable to the size of a large metro area in the US A meaningless cliché argument. Hawaii, New Hampshire, Maine, Montana, Rhode Island, Delaware , South Dakota, North Dakota, Alaska, District of Columbia, Vermont, and Wyoming all have less population than metropolitan Auckland... so do I get to make sweeping generalisations about those states based on that? There are 32 states with smaller populations than NZ. There are 44 states that are smaller in size than NZ. The Tokyo Major Metropolitan Area has about the same population as the most populous state of California - so what?
  - zepto 6y ago
    “so do I get to make sweeping generalization about those states based on that” If you did, that would be just as meaningless. Why do you want to make sweeping generalizations? What’s your point? There exists an island nation of ~5 million is better run than many parts America but worse than the best parts? What generalization do you seriously think you can make from that?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - robocat 6y ago
      My original point is “The problem is there is no better” is a defeatist attitude: there is a lot better. Every other country in the world manages to model their own policies by using other countries of smaller or larger size, that have wildly different societies and governance. Each state government in the United States holds legal and administrative jurisdiction within its bounds, yet somehow US states are special, and other countries have nothing worthwhile copying. Almost every time someone says that other countries manage to do something better, the same tired canards are brought out in attack, usually with the undercurrent of “USA #1”, therefore any other way of doing things is wrong or inapplicable. I don’t normally argue the point, because the counter-arguments like yours are so predictable and so spectacularly irrelevant. You mentioned Covid. Watching the arc of excuses made by citizens of the US has been a black comedy: it started with excuses about how China managed to control Covid, it moved on to different excuses when some other Asian countries managed low death counts, then the excuses changed again once some first world countries got their shit together. The underlying premise was “USA #1” therefore if another country is doing better then let’s pipe up with a irrelevant excuse meme. The pattern is tragically hilarious.