5 ms·

Why it must cost over $2,000 to give up something that others spend much more trying to acquire is a total mystery. Surely it does not cost $2,000 to make a not

by ttul 6y ago

Why it must cost over $2,000 to give up something that others spend much more trying to acquire is a total mystery. Surely it does not cost $2,000 to make a note of someone’s ex-citizenship.

gambiting 6y ago
Yeah it's stupid. But many countries have similar weird rules about this. In the UK the fee is about £400 so not too bad, but for instance in Poland the only way to do this is to write a letter addressed to the current President of Poland and only they can grant it(my understanding is that they always do, it's pretty much an automated process, but you do actually have to send a letter to the president).
- est31 6y ago
  In Germany, if you are a male inside a certain age range, you first have to get a waiver from the government office responsible for the draft before you can lose your citizenship.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    In Iran, you have to first finish your military service, currently 2 years, then apply to the president's office, which (almost?) never approves an application anyway.
    - lixtra 6y ago
      And your children will be Iranian as well.
      - smnrchrds 6y ago
        Yes. If you are male. Children of female citizens have to apply to get citizenship.
  - hef19898 6y ago
    There are some citizenships you cannot loose, I think Afghanistan is one such case. And Austria as well. The latter are also really picky with dual citizenship.
    - samus 6y ago
      Austrian citizenship is quite easy to lose: by acquiring another, which is in almost all cases seen by Austrian law as incompatible with the Austrian one. As you say, dual citizenship is usually only possible if jus sanguinius applies. Source: https://www.wien.gv.at/amtshelfer/dokumente/urkunden/staatsbuergerschaft/verzicht.html https://www.wien.gv.at/amtshelfer/dokumente/urkunden/staatsb...
      - hef19898 6y ago
        Ah, that was it! Thanks for correcting me! Kind of mixed things up in my head... picky Austrians!
- Symbiote 6y ago
  What reason would there be to give up British citizenship? The only one I can think of, is to aquire a different citizenship that doesn't allow dual citizens (like China). Although even then, the guidance on the British government site suggests they will go along with whatever crap China wants (like destroying a British passport) but allow keeping British citizenship, issuing a new passport afterwards, if requested to.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    This was a very big deal during earlier days of Brexit discussions, as dual German-British citizens were in a pickle - German constitution only allows German citizens to hold a citizenship of another EU country, which the UK was going to stop being. So German citizens were faced with a choice - they had to revoke one of their citizenships. Fortunately the German government passed emergency legislation which allowed the British citizens to retain their German citizenship as well. And then, well, someone times people renounce because they don't live there and they don't agree with the policies of that country.
  - paddez 6y ago
    There was an immigration case a few months ago which involved a person born in Northern Ireland attempting to use an immigration scheme for her husband which was only available to EU Nationals. Because the British State conferred British Citizenship onto this person upon merely being born in Northern Ireland, despite this person identifying solely as Irish, they were unable to avail of this scheme. The UK Home Office told this person to renounce their citizenship if they wished to available of this scheme. (This was all basically nullified by the EU Settlement Scheme coming up to Brexit, but it'll probably rear it's head again) TL;DR Dual National wanted to avail of an EU Scheme, which was unable to be used by a British Citizen. One solution was to renounce British Citizenship. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/explainer-what-is-the-emma-desouza-case-about-1.4051238 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/explainer...
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
> Surely it does not cost $2,000 to make a note of someone’s ex-citizenship. Of course. Still, doesn’t renunciation of US citizenship actually require an act of Congress annually, under which all recent applicants are included? That the price was jacked up to $2000 is outright exploitation of desperate people, but certainly there would be some administrative fee (like the earlier one, which was generally considered reasonable) to cover the chain of people from your local US consulate to those congressional staff.
- rwmj 6y ago
  > doesn’t renunciation of US citizenship actually require an act of Congress annually, under which all recent applicants are included? That's strangely absurd! Also wouldn't it be a bill of attainder (thus against the Constitution)?
  - true_religion 6y ago
    No. Acts of Congress are also necessary to commission US officers. Similar procedure is used to confirm people to federally appointed positions or allow individuals expidited paths to US citizenship. Bills of attainer seems to refer solely to acts that render a person guilty and punish them outside of normal jurisprudence.
- eesmith 6y ago
  > doesn’t renunciation of US citizenship actually require an act of Congress annually, under which all recent applicants are included? No. At least, none that I've heard of, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relinquishment_of_United_States_nationality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relinquishment_of_United_State... makes no mention of it. There is a quarterly publication of those who have renounced citzenship - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterly_Publication_of_Individuals_Who_Have_Chosen_to_Expatriate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterly_Publication_of_Indiv... . But that appears to have been put into place mostly to try to shame rich people who expatriated, under an invalid idea that most renunciations were from rich people trying to avoid paying US taxes.
shiado 6y ago
It's a lot more than $2k for many, as with the exit tax it means paying capital gains tax as if you sold every single investment you hold.
pjc50 6y ago
I wonder how different the world would be if it was something that could simply be resold. Of course, that would probably result in the end of it being acquired by birth ...
michaelt 6y ago
It's simple. You may think politicians don't give a shit about voters, but they give even less of a shit about non-voters. Just look at the treatment of illegal immigrants or Iraqi civilians. Anyone giving up their citizenship will be unable to vote at the next election - making them a non-voter. As such, in the eyes of senators they're no more important than the people that Academi mercenaries kill with impunity. Charging them $2000 is nothing.

by ttul 6y ago

Why it must cost over $2,000 to give up something that others spend much more trying to acquire is a total mystery. Surely it does not cost $2,000 to make a note of someone’s ex-citizenship.

gambiting 6y ago

Yeah it's stupid. But many countries have similar weird rules about this. In the UK the fee is about £400 so not too bad, but for instance in Poland the only way to do this is to write a letter addressed to the current President of Poland and only they can grant it(my understanding is that they always do, it's pretty much an automated process, but you do actually have to send a letter to the president).

est31 6y ago
In Germany, if you are a male inside a certain age range, you first have to get a waiver from the government office responsible for the draft before you can lose your citizenship.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  In Iran, you have to first finish your military service, currently 2 years, then apply to the president's office, which (almost?) never approves an application anyway.
  - lixtra 6y ago
    And your children will be Iranian as well.
    - smnrchrds 6y ago
      Yes. If you are male. Children of female citizens have to apply to get citizenship.
- hef19898 6y ago
  There are some citizenships you cannot loose, I think Afghanistan is one such case. And Austria as well. The latter are also really picky with dual citizenship.
  - samus 6y ago
    Austrian citizenship is quite easy to lose: by acquiring another, which is in almost all cases seen by Austrian law as incompatible with the Austrian one. As you say, dual citizenship is usually only possible if jus sanguinius applies. Source: https://www.wien.gv.at/amtshelfer/dokumente/urkunden/staatsbuergerschaft/verzicht.html https://www.wien.gv.at/amtshelfer/dokumente/urkunden/staatsb...
    - hef19898 6y ago
      Ah, that was it! Thanks for correcting me! Kind of mixed things up in my head... picky Austrians!
Symbiote 6y ago
What reason would there be to give up British citizenship? The only one I can think of, is to aquire a different citizenship that doesn't allow dual citizens (like China). Although even then, the guidance on the British government site suggests they will go along with whatever crap China wants (like destroying a British passport) but allow keeping British citizenship, issuing a new passport afterwards, if requested to.
- gambiting 6y ago
  This was a very big deal during earlier days of Brexit discussions, as dual German-British citizens were in a pickle - German constitution only allows German citizens to hold a citizenship of another EU country, which the UK was going to stop being. So German citizens were faced with a choice - they had to revoke one of their citizenships. Fortunately the German government passed emergency legislation which allowed the British citizens to retain their German citizenship as well. And then, well, someone times people renounce because they don't live there and they don't agree with the policies of that country.
- paddez 6y ago
  There was an immigration case a few months ago which involved a person born in Northern Ireland attempting to use an immigration scheme for her husband which was only available to EU Nationals. Because the British State conferred British Citizenship onto this person upon merely being born in Northern Ireland, despite this person identifying solely as Irish, they were unable to avail of this scheme. The UK Home Office told this person to renounce their citizenship if they wished to available of this scheme. (This was all basically nullified by the EU Settlement Scheme coming up to Brexit, but it'll probably rear it's head again) TL;DR Dual National wanted to avail of an EU Scheme, which was unable to be used by a British Citizen. One solution was to renounce British Citizenship. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/explainer-what-is-the-emma-desouza-case-about-1.4051238 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/explainer...

Mediterraneo10 6y ago

> Surely it does not cost $2,000 to make a note of someone’s ex-citizenship. Of course. Still, doesn’t renunciation of US citizenship actually require an act of Congress annually, under which all recent applicants are included? That the price was jacked up to $2000 is outright exploitation of desperate people, but certainly there would be some administrative fee (like the earlier one, which was generally considered reasonable) to cover the chain of people from your local US consulate to those congressional staff.

rwmj 6y ago
> doesn’t renunciation of US citizenship actually require an act of Congress annually, under which all recent applicants are included? That's strangely absurd! Also wouldn't it be a bill of attainder (thus against the Constitution)?
- true_religion 6y ago
  No. Acts of Congress are also necessary to commission US officers. Similar procedure is used to confirm people to federally appointed positions or allow individuals expidited paths to US citizenship. Bills of attainer seems to refer solely to acts that render a person guilty and punish them outside of normal jurisprudence.
eesmith 6y ago
> doesn’t renunciation of US citizenship actually require an act of Congress annually, under which all recent applicants are included? No. At least, none that I've heard of, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relinquishment_of_United_States_nationality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relinquishment_of_United_State... makes no mention of it. There is a quarterly publication of those who have renounced citzenship - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterly_Publication_of_Individuals_Who_Have_Chosen_to_Expatriate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterly_Publication_of_Indiv... . But that appears to have been put into place mostly to try to shame rich people who expatriated, under an invalid idea that most renunciations were from rich people trying to avoid paying US taxes.

shiado 6y ago

It's a lot more than $2k for many, as with the exit tax it means paying capital gains tax as if you sold every single investment you hold.

pjc50 6y ago

I wonder how different the world would be if it was something that could simply be resold. Of course, that would probably result in the end of it being acquired by birth ...

michaelt 6y ago

It's simple. You may think politicians don't give a shit about voters, but they give even less of a shit about non-voters. Just look at the treatment of illegal immigrants or Iraqi civilians. Anyone giving up their citizenship will be unable to vote at the next election - making them a non-voter. As such, in the eyes of senators they're no more important than the people that Academi mercenaries kill with impunity. Charging them $2000 is nothing.