9 ms·

It feels like I live in a country where every level of government is unbelievably corrupt, but also completely unfixable. How are you supposed to address the so

by Kapura 6y ago

It feels like I live in a country where every level of government is unbelievably corrupt, but also completely unfixable. How are you supposed to address the sorts of issues that lose $200,000,000 of state money if the people who try to do so get fired? I don't see a way out of this mess, and it makes me want to move somewhere... better.

tekproxy 6y ago
Systems tend to break down over time. This is normal. People getting fed up and trying to fix it is normal too. "Hard times create strong people. Strong people create good times. Good times create weak people. Weak people create hard times." We only get the leaders and government we deserve.
swiley 6y ago
The problem with California is that they tend to keep putting all their eggs in the same broken basket.
- aliljet 6y ago
  I'm curious what that broken basket is?
  - zbrozek 6y ago
    I'm not sure what GP had in mind either. But if I were trying to build on that statement, I'd say that a single party political landscape hasn't been good. Having at least three or four healthy competitive parties and a need to build coalitions seems like it would be really helpful. But that isn't the American way.
    - wizzwizz4 6y ago
      Fixing the voting system wouldn't solve the American Populism problem (where promising to “pull the ladder up” is a guaranteed win among most people who've already climbed it, and even some who haven't), but it would render that possible.
      - gotoeleven 6y ago
        Did some new NPC software update go out recently where populism is now supposed to mean "pull the ladder up"? Im seeing this all over the place now.
        wizzwizz4 6y ago
        We tend to call them “memes” here, since they affect protagonists and background characters alike. Anyway, I got it from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25552418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25552418 – but I don't think populism means “pull the ladder up”; rather, somebody observed that a lot of US populism at the moment is of the “why support any policy that doesn't directly benefit yourself?” variety. Edit: Though there might be a little Baader-Meinhof in it, now that I think about it. There's no reason people shouldn't've been describing this aspect of US populism before.
      - dv_dt 6y ago
        Actually changing the voting system from first past the post to some form of ranked choice could change things for the better by opening they way to a larger variety of candidates and parties.
zarkov99 6y ago
Where?
Taylor_OD 6y ago
I very much feel the same way. Unfortunately it is not easy to move to another country long term and work there. Also obviously every other country also has its own issues, many that one likely wouldnt discover until after making a move.
- Kapura 6y ago
  Fortunately, I am blessed with friends who have already made the jump, in many different directions, so I have firsthand testimonies of the pros and cons of moving to a variety of different countries. Japan sounds nice.
  - bennysonething 6y ago
    Just don't get arrested if you move to japan: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51129580 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51129580 There was a piece on BBC radio 4 about this. Stuck in a cell and not allowed to lean on walls had to sit up right the whole time horrendous. Usa has its problems, it also has a constitution and the first amendment. Sadly here in the UK we do not.
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      At least there's universal healthcare in the middle of a global pandemic, unfortunately there's a push to remodel it after the U.S. private insurance model, but also a string opposition to that idea.
      - kuzimoto 6y ago
        "Universal Healthcare" is generally pretty terrible. I'm not saying the US system is perfect, it has plenty of flaws but at least you can't be banned from getting services you want [0]. Plus government is already subsidizing the cost of the vaccine, and creating a program for elderly and low income people to get the vaccine for fairly cheap [1]. [0] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/17/nhs-provokes-fury-indefinite-surgery-ban-smokers-obese/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/17/nhs-provokes-fur... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/katiejennings/2020/11/17/how-much-will-a-covid-19-vaccine-cost/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/katiejennings/2020/11/17/how-mu...
5tefan 6y ago
Where should that be? Same in Germany. Corruption seems a noble crime and goes unpunished.
- gautamcgoel 6y ago
  Er, what do you mean by a "noble crime"? Seems like a very ignoble crime to me...
  - 5tefan 6y ago
    You are right. I meant, it is deemed acceptable in the upper echolons of society and never investigated. I've seen a lot of tax money vanish during the last 20 years and nobody is ever held responsible.
cosmodisk 6y ago
The problem is there is no better. Countries,names and organisations may differ, but it's more or less the same everywhere
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- corytheboyd 6y ago
  This. If you have the chance, talk to people, real people, from other countries. At least in my case, this is exactly what they all told me.
- humanlion87 6y ago
  Completely agree with this statement. It's just human nature. I come from a third world country where bribery and corruption is a way of life and everyone just accepts it. When I moved to the US I thought that problem doesn't exist since it's a developed country and things seem to function smoothly. It took me a few years to realize how mistaken I was. Corruption and bribery just happen in a more "legal" (ex: lobbying), "organized" and "clean" manner :)
- robocat 6y ago
  > The problem is there is no better. Ouch: “America is #1” is such an insidious belief system. Have you really opened your eyes to how some countries have much, much better governing systems? Many Scandinavian countries have a higher population than most US states, yet somehow they seem to function better in so many dimensions. I am from New Zealand and the worst interaction I have had with a government department for many many years was a breeze to deal with: competent phone help talking to a real person, emailing directly with staff, issue resolved. I am very confident the problematic process will be fixed properly within the next few years, because my experience is that every system in NZ I have ever had to deal with eventually gets fixed. For example tax returns are a breeze, and get easier each year. New Zealand has a higher population than 50% of the US states, and we are in the boondocks of the world transportation wise, yet somehow we manage to get our shit together. Of course NZ has problems of overruns, collusion, defalcation, bribery, and corruption. Yet somehow they seem to be becoming less common... it seems to me our government keeps improving on multiple dimensions. The biggest disappointments I have had with my government have been due to pressures from the US (five eyes, copyright “reform”, trade interference, political interference, war on drugs, propaganda). I regularly read a story about the US where a structural problem just never gets resolved, or even worse, it is decaying year by year. I have travelled the world, and you can cherry-pick areas where the US is resoundingly better than NZ (or the Scandinavian country of your choice)... I am talking about an overall measurement of functioning governance and society.
m463 6y ago
I found the book "the honest truth about dishonesty" by Dan Ariely very illuminating as to how dishonesty works, how it survives and when it goes away. I suspect this article has done a good job of shining a spotlight on a situation where accountability has disappeared.
yboris 6y ago
I really liked the recent book by Eliezer Yudkowsky: Inadequate Equilibria: Where and How Civilizations Get Stuck Unfortunately there isn't a direct solution (if I remember right), as much as an excellent assessment of where things go wrong and why they are hard to fix (and thus a direction in which we can push to improve things). https://www.amazon.com/Inadequate-Equilibria-Where-Civilizations-Stuck-ebook/dp/B076Z64CPG https://www.amazon.com/Inadequate-Equilibria-Where-Civilizat...
trianglem 6y ago
There isn’t anything better. Sure maybe the Scandinavian countries are somewhat better but I’d rather kill myself than live in that weather. East Asia has its own host of problems plus you’ll always be an outsider.

by Kapura 6y ago

tekproxy 6y ago

Systems tend to break down over time. This is normal. People getting fed up and trying to fix it is normal too. "Hard times create strong people. Strong people create good times. Good times create weak people. Weak people create hard times." We only get the leaders and government we deserve.

swiley 6y ago

The problem with California is that they tend to keep putting all their eggs in the same broken basket.

aliljet 6y ago
I'm curious what that broken basket is?
- zbrozek 6y ago
  I'm not sure what GP had in mind either. But if I were trying to build on that statement, I'd say that a single party political landscape hasn't been good. Having at least three or four healthy competitive parties and a need to build coalitions seems like it would be really helpful. But that isn't the American way.
  - wizzwizz4 6y ago
    Fixing the voting system wouldn't solve the American Populism problem (where promising to “pull the ladder up” is a guaranteed win among most people who've already climbed it, and even some who haven't), but it would render that possible.
    - gotoeleven 6y ago
      Did some new NPC software update go out recently where populism is now supposed to mean "pull the ladder up"? Im seeing this all over the place now.
      - wizzwizz4 6y ago
        We tend to call them “memes” here, since they affect protagonists and background characters alike. Anyway, I got it from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25552418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25552418 – but I don't think populism means “pull the ladder up”; rather, somebody observed that a lot of US populism at the moment is of the “why support any policy that doesn't directly benefit yourself?” variety. Edit: Though there might be a little Baader-Meinhof in it, now that I think about it. There's no reason people shouldn't've been describing this aspect of US populism before.
    - dv_dt 6y ago
      Actually changing the voting system from first past the post to some form of ranked choice could change things for the better by opening they way to a larger variety of candidates and parties.

zarkov99 6y ago

Where?

Taylor_OD 6y ago

I very much feel the same way. Unfortunately it is not easy to move to another country long term and work there. Also obviously every other country also has its own issues, many that one likely wouldnt discover until after making a move.

Kapura 6y ago
Fortunately, I am blessed with friends who have already made the jump, in many different directions, so I have firsthand testimonies of the pros and cons of moving to a variety of different countries. Japan sounds nice.
- bennysonething 6y ago
  Just don't get arrested if you move to japan: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51129580 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51129580 There was a piece on BBC radio 4 about this. Stuck in a cell and not allowed to lean on walls had to sit up right the whole time horrendous. Usa has its problems, it also has a constitution and the first amendment. Sadly here in the UK we do not.
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    At least there's universal healthcare in the middle of a global pandemic, unfortunately there's a push to remodel it after the U.S. private insurance model, but also a string opposition to that idea.
    - kuzimoto 6y ago
      "Universal Healthcare" is generally pretty terrible. I'm not saying the US system is perfect, it has plenty of flaws but at least you can't be banned from getting services you want [0]. Plus government is already subsidizing the cost of the vaccine, and creating a program for elderly and low income people to get the vaccine for fairly cheap [1]. [0] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/17/nhs-provokes-fury-indefinite-surgery-ban-smokers-obese/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/17/nhs-provokes-fur... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/katiejennings/2020/11/17/how-much-will-a-covid-19-vaccine-cost/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/katiejennings/2020/11/17/how-mu...

5tefan 6y ago

Where should that be? Same in Germany. Corruption seems a noble crime and goes unpunished.

gautamcgoel 6y ago
Er, what do you mean by a "noble crime"? Seems like a very ignoble crime to me...
- 5tefan 6y ago
  You are right. I meant, it is deemed acceptable in the upper echolons of society and never investigated. I've seen a lot of tax money vanish during the last 20 years and nobody is ever held responsible.

cosmodisk 6y ago

The problem is there is no better. Countries,names and organisations may differ, but it's more or less the same everywhere

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
corytheboyd 6y ago
This. If you have the chance, talk to people, real people, from other countries. At least in my case, this is exactly what they all told me.
humanlion87 6y ago
Completely agree with this statement. It's just human nature. I come from a third world country where bribery and corruption is a way of life and everyone just accepts it. When I moved to the US I thought that problem doesn't exist since it's a developed country and things seem to function smoothly. It took me a few years to realize how mistaken I was. Corruption and bribery just happen in a more "legal" (ex: lobbying), "organized" and "clean" manner :)
robocat 6y ago
> The problem is there is no better. Ouch: “America is #1” is such an insidious belief system. Have you really opened your eyes to how some countries have much, much better governing systems? Many Scandinavian countries have a higher population than most US states, yet somehow they seem to function better in so many dimensions. I am from New Zealand and the worst interaction I have had with a government department for many many years was a breeze to deal with: competent phone help talking to a real person, emailing directly with staff, issue resolved. I am very confident the problematic process will be fixed properly within the next few years, because my experience is that every system in NZ I have ever had to deal with eventually gets fixed. For example tax returns are a breeze, and get easier each year. New Zealand has a higher population than 50% of the US states, and we are in the boondocks of the world transportation wise, yet somehow we manage to get our shit together. Of course NZ has problems of overruns, collusion, defalcation, bribery, and corruption. Yet somehow they seem to be becoming less common... it seems to me our government keeps improving on multiple dimensions. The biggest disappointments I have had with my government have been due to pressures from the US (five eyes, copyright “reform”, trade interference, political interference, war on drugs, propaganda). I regularly read a story about the US where a structural problem just never gets resolved, or even worse, it is decaying year by year. I have travelled the world, and you can cherry-pick areas where the US is resoundingly better than NZ (or the Scandinavian country of your choice)... I am talking about an overall measurement of functioning governance and society.

m463 6y ago

I found the book "the honest truth about dishonesty" by Dan Ariely very illuminating as to how dishonesty works, how it survives and when it goes away. I suspect this article has done a good job of shining a spotlight on a situation where accountability has disappeared.

yboris 6y ago

I really liked the recent book by Eliezer Yudkowsky: Inadequate Equilibria: Where and How Civilizations Get Stuck Unfortunately there isn't a direct solution (if I remember right), as much as an excellent assessment of where things go wrong and why they are hard to fix (and thus a direction in which we can push to improve things). https://www.amazon.com/Inadequate-Equilibria-Where-Civilizations-Stuck-ebook/dp/B076Z64CPG https://www.amazon.com/Inadequate-Equilibria-Where-Civilizat...

trianglem 6y ago

There isn’t anything better. Sure maybe the Scandinavian countries are somewhat better but I’d rather kill myself than live in that weather. East Asia has its own host of problems plus you’ll always be an outsider.