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I don't buy this. Crying spells and slowed movements attract attention. Flat affect reads as ingratitude. Emotional deadening tends to leave you with the one em

I don't buy this. Crying spells and slowed movements attract attention. Flat affect reads as ingratitude. Emotional deadening tends to leave you with the one emotion that will get you in the most trouble, anger. Lethargy and dread make you want to decline every invitation and activity, which is far from submissive - people feel you are rejecting them or neglecting your responsibilities. Really the only thing that seems adaptive is suppressing executive function / initiative. In every other respect, to keep your head down and avoid punishment you need to conform. Depressed people do sometimes manage this but they describe it as exhausting work, which was easier before they get depressed.

andrewflnr 6y ago
I've never been depressed, but this sounds all wrong based on accounts I've read. > Crying spells and slowed movements attract attention. Only if you're already around people. Slowed movements put you in the path of fewer people, especially in a pre-modern environment (say, hunter-gathering). The natural inclination of a depressed person is, afaict, not to leave the house at all. > Flat affect reads as ingratitude. Only matters in a particular type of social environment, which a person suffering depression would likely rather avoid. > Emotional deadening tends to leave you with the one emotion that will get you in the most trouble, anger. This doesn't square with any account of depression I've ever heard. I think it's an entirely different kind of deadening. And it's not about "submissiveness". If you're getting that from the one example in the article, I don't think you understood it. I think the theory is that depression is about avoiding negative stimulus/continuing damage/trauma. "Conformation" as the prime way to avoid damage, rather than staying out of the way of predators or, I don't know, conserving strength after an injury, is extremely modern. Depression can get behind sugar-craving in the line of things that just recently became maladaptive.
- closeparen 6y ago
  People generally have to cooperate with others to get their material needs met. What do you think happens to someone who withdraws from or alienates the tribe while they are least capable of protecting themselves or killing their own dinner?
  - andrewflnr 6y ago
    I'm sure it sucks, but I bet it's still better than pretending you're fine. And I'm pretty sure your tribe will understand if you just got injured or sick and need to take it easy for a while.
    - kirillzubovsky 6y ago
      Great point. I think in the modern society it is customary to put on a mask and hide your feelings. Meanwhile, and this of course requires some research, it is possible that in small tribal societies it was perfectly okay to accept emotions as part of life. "Hey guys, Bob's a bit down this week. Let's get him some mushrooms and get him some counseling with a local shaman." - was probably the way to go.
      - andrewflnr 6y ago
        Ideally that, or possibly (more cynically), "ugh, Bob is being useless this week, but it's worth the energy investment to help him through it so he can contribute to the tribe later". It's worth remembering that practices don't have to make people happy, or in any way be "healthy" in our modern sense, to be effective.

andrewflnr 6y ago

I've never been depressed, but this sounds all wrong based on accounts I've read. > Crying spells and slowed movements attract attention. Only if you're already around people. Slowed movements put you in the path of fewer people, especially in a pre-modern environment (say, hunter-gathering). The natural inclination of a depressed person is, afaict, not to leave the house at all. > Flat affect reads as ingratitude. Only matters in a particular type of social environment, which a person suffering depression would likely rather avoid. > Emotional deadening tends to leave you with the one emotion that will get you in the most trouble, anger. This doesn't square with any account of depression I've ever heard. I think it's an entirely different kind of deadening. And it's not about "submissiveness". If you're getting that from the one example in the article, I don't think you understood it. I think the theory is that depression is about avoiding negative stimulus/continuing damage/trauma. "Conformation" as the prime way to avoid damage, rather than staying out of the way of predators or, I don't know, conserving strength after an injury, is extremely modern. Depression can get behind sugar-craving in the line of things that just recently became maladaptive.

closeparen 6y ago
People generally have to cooperate with others to get their material needs met. What do you think happens to someone who withdraws from or alienates the tribe while they are least capable of protecting themselves or killing their own dinner?
- andrewflnr 6y ago
  I'm sure it sucks, but I bet it's still better than pretending you're fine. And I'm pretty sure your tribe will understand if you just got injured or sick and need to take it easy for a while.
  - kirillzubovsky 6y ago
    Great point. I think in the modern society it is customary to put on a mask and hide your feelings. Meanwhile, and this of course requires some research, it is possible that in small tribal societies it was perfectly okay to accept emotions as part of life. "Hey guys, Bob's a bit down this week. Let's get him some mushrooms and get him some counseling with a local shaman." - was probably the way to go.
    - andrewflnr 6y ago
      Ideally that, or possibly (more cynically), "ugh, Bob is being useless this week, but it's worth the energy investment to help him through it so he can contribute to the tribe later". It's worth remembering that practices don't have to make people happy, or in any way be "healthy" in our modern sense, to be effective.