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I feel a game between two Dominion aficionados is probably pretty fun, but as the person with a friend who's into Dominion, I hate the stupid game. Very simply

I feel a game between two Dominion aficionados is probably pretty fun, but as the person with a friend who's into Dominion, I hate the stupid game. Very simply: Nobody else around the table is going to know the game better than him, and hence, there really isn't much sport in bringing your Dominion box out and suggesting we play. This reviewer is perfectly proud of the fact that a newbie doesn't stand a chance against a veteran player. But that also makes it a terrible party game. There should always be benefits to experience and skill, but the near complete lack of randomness in Dominion, compared to something simpler like Ascension, makes it really unpleasant to play if there's a skill gap.

phreack 6y ago
I feel any party game that also intends to have mechanics prone to skill imbalances needs some built in, playtested method of handicapping. I don't mind playing (say) Super Smash with a total pro when we can easily agree that they have less lives than me, a newb, for example.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  Yeah, another commenter suggested a handicap too, but how I am supposed to figure out what handicap is "fair". If this was important to the game developers, it should be on them to determine it.
colmvp 6y ago
You could make a rule that the more experienced player has to start with a handicap. That's fairly standard in Chess when an experienced player wants to play against a much weaker opponent.
- lmm 6y ago
  One of the reasons I prefer Tanto Cuore (which is more or less a Dominion clone) is that there are always attack options on the board. Usually when I introduce a new group to the game there'll come a point about 3/4 of the way through where they all notice that I'm ahead and spend a round or two all buying Bad Habit cards for me, and I nod to myself and say "yep, they've got it" and lose.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  Yeah, or just add gold or silver to the starting hand of the weak player.
adamredwoods 6y ago
Agreed, this and the other similar comment. This is not a game where being new invites an interesting game, if the other players are uninviting. I remember one board game gathering where they played Dominion, including a younger player, but I bowed out from playing. There was one particular player in that group who was boisterous and loud, and could name every combo as they were setting up. After a while we could all tell he was winning, mostly from his loud exclamations. Eventually he did win and bragged about it so badly, the younger player left with his family with his head down. I felt bad because I knew that the game, from that initial jerk player, would not end well. This is why I admire the game Dominion from afar, but will rarely ever play.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  I think part of Dominion's engine-building mechanics is what makes it terrible to play if going up against someone more experienced: My friend would need five minutes to take his turn, while everyone else had a card or two to play. It wasn't fun sitting through. At least with chess, every player is making one move per turn, it always feels fair, even when you are less skilled.
gwd 6y ago
> Nobody else around the table is going to know the game better than him, and hence, there really isn't much sport in bringing your Dominion box out and suggesting we play. This reviewer is perfectly proud of the fact that a newbie doesn't stand a chance against a veteran player. That's basically true for any game where there's a wide range of possible skill levels. The question is -- how much fun is it, as a beginner, to play against an expert, knowing that you're probably not going to win? Most games like this (chess, Starcraft, etc), it's not fun at all: the core strategy is to damage your opponent's ability to play and execute their strategy. Losing in Dominion isn't nearly so bad. A beginner can look at the cards, form a strategy, and see their deck beginning to start to work (or see that it doesn't work) before the game ends. That means you can still try things and have a sense of satisfaction, even if you end up losing. If you're the competitive type who can't have fun if you're not going to win, then sure, playing someone at a much higher skill level isn't going to work. But lots of people don't mind losing if the process isn't crushing / humiliating like chess, and in those situations, Dominion is a pretty good game. I know a couple where the husband is really into board games, and the wife thinks games are kind of fun but not super-serious; Dominion is one of their go-to games, because he can minmax to his hearts content while still making it fun for her.
- superhuzza 6y ago
  >That's basically true for any game where there's a wide range of possible skill levels. In the last few years I've gotten a lot of enjoyment out of collaborative board games. 5 Minute Dungeon is more fun than it has any right to be. My family really enjoyed Pandemic. Haven't tried Gloomhaven but it seems fun as well. Then there's the whole style of DnD types games, even if they're a bit different.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  I think my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25549645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25549645 explains why I find Dominion uniquely terrible to play with mismatched skill levels, beyond just the "no chance of winning" aspect. In video games, we call this "snowballing", where once you or your team is losing, the power differential continues to grow, to the point it's not fun. This can happen in MOBAs where teams level, and get more powerful each time they do... the larger the level differential, the less fun the game is for all involved. As soon as the losing team has no chance to recover, there's not much reason for them to continue playing... And the lack of challenge usually gives the winning players or team an unsatisfactory game too, there's no challenge. In games with a mechanic that snowballs, generally, the game developers try to tune it out, ensuring that players and teams stay within a one or two level margin... a margin that the losing team at least stands a chance of recovering from. Dominion is not just a game with a snowball effect, but one that does not remotely try to curb it.

phreack 6y ago

I feel any party game that also intends to have mechanics prone to skill imbalances needs some built in, playtested method of handicapping. I don't mind playing (say) Super Smash with a total pro when we can easily agree that they have less lives than me, a newb, for example.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
Yeah, another commenter suggested a handicap too, but how I am supposed to figure out what handicap is "fair". If this was important to the game developers, it should be on them to determine it.

colmvp 6y ago

You could make a rule that the more experienced player has to start with a handicap. That's fairly standard in Chess when an experienced player wants to play against a much weaker opponent.

lmm 6y ago
One of the reasons I prefer Tanto Cuore (which is more or less a Dominion clone) is that there are always attack options on the board. Usually when I introduce a new group to the game there'll come a point about 3/4 of the way through where they all notice that I'm ahead and spend a round or two all buying Bad Habit cards for me, and I nod to myself and say "yep, they've got it" and lose.
hutzlibu 6y ago
Yeah, or just add gold or silver to the starting hand of the weak player.

adamredwoods 6y ago

Agreed, this and the other similar comment. This is not a game where being new invites an interesting game, if the other players are uninviting. I remember one board game gathering where they played Dominion, including a younger player, but I bowed out from playing. There was one particular player in that group who was boisterous and loud, and could name every combo as they were setting up. After a while we could all tell he was winning, mostly from his loud exclamations. Eventually he did win and bragged about it so badly, the younger player left with his family with his head down. I felt bad because I knew that the game, from that initial jerk player, would not end well. This is why I admire the game Dominion from afar, but will rarely ever play.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
I think part of Dominion's engine-building mechanics is what makes it terrible to play if going up against someone more experienced: My friend would need five minutes to take his turn, while everyone else had a card or two to play. It wasn't fun sitting through. At least with chess, every player is making one move per turn, it always feels fair, even when you are less skilled.

gwd 6y ago

> Nobody else around the table is going to know the game better than him, and hence, there really isn't much sport in bringing your Dominion box out and suggesting we play. This reviewer is perfectly proud of the fact that a newbie doesn't stand a chance against a veteran player. That's basically true for any game where there's a wide range of possible skill levels. The question is -- how much fun is it, as a beginner, to play against an expert, knowing that you're probably not going to win? Most games like this (chess, Starcraft, etc), it's not fun at all: the core strategy is to damage your opponent's ability to play and execute their strategy. Losing in Dominion isn't nearly so bad. A beginner can look at the cards, form a strategy, and see their deck beginning to start to work (or see that it doesn't work) before the game ends. That means you can still try things and have a sense of satisfaction, even if you end up losing. If you're the competitive type who can't have fun if you're not going to win, then sure, playing someone at a much higher skill level isn't going to work. But lots of people don't mind losing if the process isn't crushing / humiliating like chess, and in those situations, Dominion is a pretty good game. I know a couple where the husband is really into board games, and the wife thinks games are kind of fun but not super-serious; Dominion is one of their go-to games, because he can minmax to his hearts content while still making it fun for her.

superhuzza 6y ago
>That's basically true for any game where there's a wide range of possible skill levels. In the last few years I've gotten a lot of enjoyment out of collaborative board games. 5 Minute Dungeon is more fun than it has any right to be. My family really enjoyed Pandemic. Haven't tried Gloomhaven but it seems fun as well. Then there's the whole style of DnD types games, even if they're a bit different.
ocdtrekkie 6y ago
I think my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25549645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25549645 explains why I find Dominion uniquely terrible to play with mismatched skill levels, beyond just the "no chance of winning" aspect. In video games, we call this "snowballing", where once you or your team is losing, the power differential continues to grow, to the point it's not fun. This can happen in MOBAs where teams level, and get more powerful each time they do... the larger the level differential, the less fun the game is for all involved. As soon as the losing team has no chance to recover, there's not much reason for them to continue playing... And the lack of challenge usually gives the winning players or team an unsatisfactory game too, there's no challenge. In games with a mechanic that snowballs, generally, the game developers try to tune it out, ensuring that players and teams stay within a one or two level margin... a margin that the losing team at least stands a chance of recovering from. Dominion is not just a game with a snowball effect, but one that does not remotely try to curb it.