5 ms·

It’s worth thinking about how we measure how “good” a life is and if that is superficial and too much influenced by fashion. For example the cliche is go travel

It’s worth thinking about how we measure how “good” a life is and if that is superficial and too much influenced by fashion. For example the cliche is go travelling or get rich starting a business. “I raised kids” doesn’t have the same boastworthyness in a lot of circles, but arguably it’s more interesting. Or maybe not. What’s the life well lived metric?

jackcosgrove 6y ago
I recently became acquainted with the teachings of Epicurus. He advocated living a simple life of simple pleasures surrounded by friends. It's almost a truism that seeking fame and fortune is a route to unhappiness. Not necessarily because these are bad things, but because the desires that drive these choices seem to be insatiable.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  For me, (very) modest fortune and essentially zero fame seems to be the ideal situation. Like a paid off house, a nest egg that throws off $10K/month, and only family/friends know who I am.
  - closeparen 6y ago
    My goals are about the same, and sometimes I worry whether they're ambitious enough. But they really are. It takes a very particular reference frame to make them "simple" or "modest." $120k is a 90th percentile income! And that's among people working full time for it.
    - onecommentman 6y ago
      Yeah, I think $5K/mo with no mortgage is plenty in most parts of the US. In NJ with a big house, that can disappear into just property taxes... Regarding fame, I think the words of the late 20th Century philosopher David Cassidy summed it up best https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cassidy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cassidy If you are desperate for fame and fortune, try just fortune and see how that works out for you.
  - redisman 6y ago
    Hah $10k/mo is modest? I agree I just want to retire in a forest or island a few hours from a major metropolitan area.
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      As an adjectival modifier of "fortune"? It seems to qualify.
chki 6y ago
I mean that's just straight-up asking for the purpose of life: You can't possibly give a rational logical answer. It's (quite beautifully in my opinion) one of those questions that everybody can only answer for themselves.
throwaway189262 6y ago
Raising kids is the "default" choice. More than 50% of people do it. Getting rich or traveling for your life are much rarer, hence more interesting Edit: ah yes downvotes. Think about it this way. You meet someone with 6 fingers on each hand, kinda interesting right? Minutes later you meet someone with 5 fingers, also interesting?
- User23 6y ago
  Raising kids is what every single one of your ancestors did. It’s entirely orthogonal to those other things.
- manwe150 6y ago
  Having kids? Probably not. Raising them? Probably yes. Same with fingers: having them is more interesting if they can do something novel with them (say, play an instrument). But this being HN, I know plenty of people that travel a lot (no idea if that’s typical).
- porknubbins 6y ago
  Most rich people I’ve met are on average thoroughly ordinary. Its what made me realize I deserve wealthy as much as they do.
- quickthrower2 6y ago
  Sure it depends on you audience though.
rayiner 6y ago
The nice thing about a culture that exalts “I raised kids and they turned out well” as a “life well lived metric” is that its broadly accessible. You can be born below average in intelligence and creativity and still be a good dad or mom, participate in local civic organizations, etc.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  What if your kids reject you and want nothing to do with you?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - trident1000 6y ago
    Its usually a two way street to developing a relationship with your kids.
  - koolba 6y ago
    Then you still love them anyway.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    That life isn’t for everyone, and it doesn’t work out for everyone. But it’s also worth considering the average person. The average person isn’t going to be professionally successful, or travel the world, or do anything significant. But they can raise kids who probably love them and come to thanksgiving, etc. I think our modern ways of thinking are leaving the typical person behind.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - DougN7 6y ago
    I know of a few cases where this has happened. In one case the parents were abusive, so this is on them. The other case was great parents and an immature youth. With time that youth will mature and come around when he recognizes the goodness in his parents. In the end, it’s success if you raise your kids with love.
indigochill 6y ago
> What’s the life well lived metric? I grew up Christian, and among Christian young people a common question was "What's God's plan for my life?" In that context, I came across Micah 6:8 which spells it out about as plainly as you'll find anywhere: "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" That seems like a standard that everyone can get behind. It gives you a standard by which to measure how well you're living, but your options remain open to do whatever you want as long as you do it justly, kindly, and humbly.
- Retric 6y ago
  with your God is a rather major point you just ignored from that line. No offense intended, I simply thought it was quite interesting.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    As the twelve step programs tell us, everyone has a god, whether divine or not.
    - Retric 6y ago
      Which is yet a 3rd way to read that line which would honestly never have occurred to me.
    - klyrs 6y ago
      That's no more convincing than a missionary telling me that I'll go to hell if I don't repent. Simple solution: don't open the door for missionaries.
      - Apocryphon 6y ago
        The idea is that everyone has unifying motivations, often in a higher power, where they derive their personal sense of morality from. Whether religion, family, tradition, survival, knowledge, the invisible hand of the market, a love of humanity or life for its own sake, sheer pleasure, whatever. The point is that regardless of the original intent of the Judeo-Christian text, it seems an admirable enough message that can be recontextualized easily enough to fit those of different ethical and theological viewpoints on this forum. No hair-splitting or holy wars necessary. The allusion to Alcoholics Anonymous is that the “acknowledging a higher power” step, while commonly assumed as pushing crypto-Christianity, can be reinterpreted by each individual participant as their own unifying motivator.
someelephant 6y ago
Value your life based on your own opinions not those of others. If you must value others, do it after you appreciate the human underneath.
0xbadcafebee 6y ago
The distance and the slope, I'd say. Life is like a long mountain trail in a great migration. There are criss-crossing paths everywhere, and you have to decide which to take. The goal is to climb until you reach the summit. There'll always be valleys and hills, so you won't always be going up. But each step you take forward, and each foot higher in elevation, is your life getting better. If you can say that most of the time you were moving forward and higher, to me that's a well-lived life. Could you have taken a shorter path and gotten there faster? Sure! But the longer you're on the path, the more time you have to smell the flowers, listen to the birds sing, see the trees swaying in the wind. Maybe you're content to stay exactly where you are. But I think most of us should keep climbing, because there's always new trails to see. Who cares how we get there as long as we keep going up.
ReactiveJelly 6y ago
For me? I wish I was happy. And I think some hard-to-treat mental illness is preventing my day-to-day happiness. When I feel envious of others, it's not only that they're rich and they travel a lot. They also have friends. They might even have a family they care about. They have hobbies and they have _something_ to do. A lot of them say they have problems with mental health, but you can't film a year-long depressive episode and upload it to YouTube, so I have to take their word for it. And in truth I don't. The world seems clean-split between people who have everything and people who have it even harder than me, and I always just feel alone in this middle ground, where I have all the material elements to be healthy and happy but I can't put them together. I have many things other people want, but I never find myself sitting back and saying "I'm glad I have this." I always want things I can't have, and it hurts a lot.
- rewgs 6y ago
  > The world seems clean-split between people who have everything and people who have it even harder than me, and I always just feel alone in this middle ground, where I have all the material elements to be healthy and happy but I can't put them together. You're not as alone as you think, because this just resonated like I can't even explain.
- flopunctro 6y ago
  > I wish I was happy. IMHO, this is a mistake, if not _the_ mistake. I feel like i've been in your shoes, in a past life. I've come to believe that happiness is like the horizon, or the sunset. It's a fuzzy concept, which disappears if you go too close to it. The horizon is not a place, and the sunset is not a moment. They are aggregate phenomena. You can't set them as targets, because they don't exist physically. You can observe them as composite entities, emerging in the right context. Such is happiness. You can't set it as an objective, because it doesn't exist. And chasing it directly will only cause you suffering. Instead, try to set smaller goals, and let it emerge on its own. Take care of your physical health. Take care of your relationships. Allocate time, not much, but regularly, for activities that you like (hobbies). Widen your intellectual horizons, e.g. by reading or listening to diverse people. Get better at what you do professionally. Try to find some form of meditation that works for you. Occasionally, try writing long, thoughtful comments on forums :) Try to do these without looking too far into it; just trust the process. And at some point, you'll have the revelation "man, it's been quite some time since i felt unhappy!"
onecommentman 6y ago
“‘I raised kids’ doesn’t have the same boastworthyness in a lot of circles...” Wait twenty years and it will be the only thing...
latexr 6y ago
> “I raised kids” doesn’t have the same boastworthyness in a lot of circles, but arguably it’s more interesting. But it doesn’t make you happier: https://youtu.be/2EiV4-ClcIs?t=2180 https://youtu.be/2EiV4-ClcIs?t=2180

jackcosgrove 6y ago

I recently became acquainted with the teachings of Epicurus. He advocated living a simple life of simple pleasures surrounded by friends. It's almost a truism that seeking fame and fortune is a route to unhappiness. Not necessarily because these are bad things, but because the desires that drive these choices seem to be insatiable.

sokoloff 6y ago
For me, (very) modest fortune and essentially zero fame seems to be the ideal situation. Like a paid off house, a nest egg that throws off $10K/month, and only family/friends know who I am.
- closeparen 6y ago
  My goals are about the same, and sometimes I worry whether they're ambitious enough. But they really are. It takes a very particular reference frame to make them "simple" or "modest." $120k is a 90th percentile income! And that's among people working full time for it.
  - onecommentman 6y ago
    Yeah, I think $5K/mo with no mortgage is plenty in most parts of the US. In NJ with a big house, that can disappear into just property taxes... Regarding fame, I think the words of the late 20th Century philosopher David Cassidy summed it up best https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cassidy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cassidy If you are desperate for fame and fortune, try just fortune and see how that works out for you.
- redisman 6y ago
  Hah $10k/mo is modest? I agree I just want to retire in a forest or island a few hours from a major metropolitan area.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    As an adjectival modifier of "fortune"? It seems to qualify.

chki 6y ago

I mean that's just straight-up asking for the purpose of life: You can't possibly give a rational logical answer. It's (quite beautifully in my opinion) one of those questions that everybody can only answer for themselves.

throwaway189262 6y ago

Raising kids is the "default" choice. More than 50% of people do it. Getting rich or traveling for your life are much rarer, hence more interesting Edit: ah yes downvotes. Think about it this way. You meet someone with 6 fingers on each hand, kinda interesting right? Minutes later you meet someone with 5 fingers, also interesting?

User23 6y ago
Raising kids is what every single one of your ancestors did. It’s entirely orthogonal to those other things.
manwe150 6y ago
Having kids? Probably not. Raising them? Probably yes. Same with fingers: having them is more interesting if they can do something novel with them (say, play an instrument). But this being HN, I know plenty of people that travel a lot (no idea if that’s typical).
porknubbins 6y ago
Most rich people I’ve met are on average thoroughly ordinary. Its what made me realize I deserve wealthy as much as they do.
quickthrower2 6y ago
Sure it depends on you audience though.

rayiner 6y ago

The nice thing about a culture that exalts “I raised kids and they turned out well” as a “life well lived metric” is that its broadly accessible. You can be born below average in intelligence and creativity and still be a good dad or mom, participate in local civic organizations, etc.

selimthegrim 6y ago
What if your kids reject you and want nothing to do with you?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- trident1000 6y ago
  Its usually a two way street to developing a relationship with your kids.
- koolba 6y ago
  Then you still love them anyway.
- rayiner 6y ago
  That life isn’t for everyone, and it doesn’t work out for everyone. But it’s also worth considering the average person. The average person isn’t going to be professionally successful, or travel the world, or do anything significant. But they can raise kids who probably love them and come to thanksgiving, etc. I think our modern ways of thinking are leaving the typical person behind.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- DougN7 6y ago
  I know of a few cases where this has happened. In one case the parents were abusive, so this is on them. The other case was great parents and an immature youth. With time that youth will mature and come around when he recognizes the goodness in his parents. In the end, it’s success if you raise your kids with love.

indigochill 6y ago

> What’s the life well lived metric? I grew up Christian, and among Christian young people a common question was "What's God's plan for my life?" In that context, I came across Micah 6:8 which spells it out about as plainly as you'll find anywhere: "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" That seems like a standard that everyone can get behind. It gives you a standard by which to measure how well you're living, but your options remain open to do whatever you want as long as you do it justly, kindly, and humbly.

Retric 6y ago
with your God is a rather major point you just ignored from that line. No offense intended, I simply thought it was quite interesting.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  As the twelve step programs tell us, everyone has a god, whether divine or not.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Which is yet a 3rd way to read that line which would honestly never have occurred to me.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    That's no more convincing than a missionary telling me that I'll go to hell if I don't repent. Simple solution: don't open the door for missionaries.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      The idea is that everyone has unifying motivations, often in a higher power, where they derive their personal sense of morality from. Whether religion, family, tradition, survival, knowledge, the invisible hand of the market, a love of humanity or life for its own sake, sheer pleasure, whatever. The point is that regardless of the original intent of the Judeo-Christian text, it seems an admirable enough message that can be recontextualized easily enough to fit those of different ethical and theological viewpoints on this forum. No hair-splitting or holy wars necessary. The allusion to Alcoholics Anonymous is that the “acknowledging a higher power” step, while commonly assumed as pushing crypto-Christianity, can be reinterpreted by each individual participant as their own unifying motivator.

someelephant 6y ago

Value your life based on your own opinions not those of others. If you must value others, do it after you appreciate the human underneath.

0xbadcafebee 6y ago

The distance and the slope, I'd say. Life is like a long mountain trail in a great migration. There are criss-crossing paths everywhere, and you have to decide which to take. The goal is to climb until you reach the summit. There'll always be valleys and hills, so you won't always be going up. But each step you take forward, and each foot higher in elevation, is your life getting better. If you can say that most of the time you were moving forward and higher, to me that's a well-lived life. Could you have taken a shorter path and gotten there faster? Sure! But the longer you're on the path, the more time you have to smell the flowers, listen to the birds sing, see the trees swaying in the wind. Maybe you're content to stay exactly where you are. But I think most of us should keep climbing, because there's always new trails to see. Who cares how we get there as long as we keep going up.

ReactiveJelly 6y ago

For me? I wish I was happy. And I think some hard-to-treat mental illness is preventing my day-to-day happiness. When I feel envious of others, it's not only that they're rich and they travel a lot. They also have friends. They might even have a family they care about. They have hobbies and they have _something_ to do. A lot of them say they have problems with mental health, but you can't film a year-long depressive episode and upload it to YouTube, so I have to take their word for it. And in truth I don't. The world seems clean-split between people who have everything and people who have it even harder than me, and I always just feel alone in this middle ground, where I have all the material elements to be healthy and happy but I can't put them together. I have many things other people want, but I never find myself sitting back and saying "I'm glad I have this." I always want things I can't have, and it hurts a lot.

rewgs 6y ago
> The world seems clean-split between people who have everything and people who have it even harder than me, and I always just feel alone in this middle ground, where I have all the material elements to be healthy and happy but I can't put them together. You're not as alone as you think, because this just resonated like I can't even explain.
flopunctro 6y ago
> I wish I was happy. IMHO, this is a mistake, if not _the_ mistake. I feel like i've been in your shoes, in a past life. I've come to believe that happiness is like the horizon, or the sunset. It's a fuzzy concept, which disappears if you go too close to it. The horizon is not a place, and the sunset is not a moment. They are aggregate phenomena. You can't set them as targets, because they don't exist physically. You can observe them as composite entities, emerging in the right context. Such is happiness. You can't set it as an objective, because it doesn't exist. And chasing it directly will only cause you suffering. Instead, try to set smaller goals, and let it emerge on its own. Take care of your physical health. Take care of your relationships. Allocate time, not much, but regularly, for activities that you like (hobbies). Widen your intellectual horizons, e.g. by reading or listening to diverse people. Get better at what you do professionally. Try to find some form of meditation that works for you. Occasionally, try writing long, thoughtful comments on forums :) Try to do these without looking too far into it; just trust the process. And at some point, you'll have the revelation "man, it's been quite some time since i felt unhappy!"

onecommentman 6y ago

“‘I raised kids’ doesn’t have the same boastworthyness in a lot of circles...” Wait twenty years and it will be the only thing...

latexr 6y ago

> “I raised kids” doesn’t have the same boastworthyness in a lot of circles, but arguably it’s more interesting. But it doesn’t make you happier: https://youtu.be/2EiV4-ClcIs?t=2180 https://youtu.be/2EiV4-ClcIs?t=2180