4 ms·

Which exact projects do you have in mind? Because none of the issues you identify seem to apply to the BSDs. We don't really have the notion of "maintainers",

by cnst 6y ago

Which exact projects do you have in mind? Because none of the issues you identify seem to apply to the BSDs. We don't really have the notion of "maintainers", either, so, I'm guessing your comments aren't as a BSD user per se? The BSDs have excellent archives of the mailing lists; FreeBSD, NetBSD and DragonFly have their own websites with complete or near-complete archives, including full threading and sub-threading support; all BSDs are also archived on marc.info, and plentiful of other sources, some of which do come and go; but archives themselves are downloadable in bulk from the underlying projects, so, archiving is generally a non-issue. What formatting tools? Why would I need any formatting tools to hack the kernel? That's only a benefit that none are available. Security mechanisms? How's GitHub any better? Anyone can make any account and pretend to be anyone. Or do you suggest GitHub introduce Account Verification, so that someone at Microsoft-owned GitHub could then decide whether or not you're an OSS contributor worthy of a Blue Checkmark to accompany your name? I think we did have people pretend to be de Raadt or Dillon over the years, but it's generally not really an issue; often just the April 1 jokes; very easy to verify based on headers. > Forum config problem. OK, now we're talking! So, how about all those forums fix their "forum config" problems, and then maybe we'll talk? Mailing lists are by far superior to what GitHub or any other popular forums actually do offer as of today. GitHub Issues, for example, doesn't even support threading within an Issue; unlike the mailing lists since decades ago. There's absolutely no archiving of GitHub Issues being done anywhere that I'm aware of, apart from user-initiated archive.today. So, even in such basic aspects, mailing lists are already superior. Not to mention that we have contributors from across the globe, whereas Microsoft disables (without notice) GitHub accounts of anyone who's a citizen or a visitor of the geographic places and peninsulas you aren't supposed to visit or originate from -- covering dozens of millions of global citizens, denying them access to code for no good reason.

Avamander 6y ago
> Because none of the issues you identify seem to apply to the BSDs. A lot of those issues are fundamental to mailing lists and e-mails. They do apply. > What formatting tools? Why would I need any formatting tools to hack the kernel? Having text formatting tools is really useful when communicating things. If you don't need it, okay, that doesn't negate its usefulness for others. > Security mechanisms? DKIM/DMARC/SPF. The rest of your paragraph is tangential, applies to the entire world and all tech where identities come to play, with a few smaller exceptions. > So, how about all those forums fix their "forum config" problems, and then maybe we'll talk? You do realize that's an absolutely ridiculous demand, it's up to the project to have a configuration they like. > GitHub Issues, for example, doesn't even support threading within an Issue; unlike the mailing lists since decades ago. That's a feature, not a bug. > So, even in such basic aspects, mailing lists are already superior Yet in so many others it lags so much behind. In all the aspects you very conveniently did not address in your last comment. > Microsoft disables (without notice) GitHub accounts of anyone who's a citizen or a visitor of the geographic places There are more options out there in addition to GitHub. > Mailing lists are by far superior to what GitHub or any other popular forums actually do offer as of today. That's a very absolute statement. Just calling it "superior" would've been a stretch, "far superior" is borderline delusional.
- cnst 6y ago
  So, you haven't provided a single strong argument for how forums are superior, deferred proper functionality to a "forum config" that doesn't even exist anywhere, dismissed subthreading as a "bug" even though it's clearly been a very useful feature for decades, and then sprinkled the whole thing with "security" concerns that aren't even solved by the forums, and which noone really cares about anyways? Solid arguments to commence a change! > it's up to the project to have a configuration they like Exactly. Our mailing lists are far, far superior, than any alternative forum setups I've ever seen. I do insist it's not just "superior" to most forums, but indeed "far superior". > Having text formatting tools is really useful when communicating things. Then why do you even visit HN? There's no formatting tools available here, is there?
  - Avamander 6y ago
    > So, you haven't provided a single strong argument for how forums are superior I did, and actually you did too, but you also conveniently ignored those points. Which lets me know they hit the target very well. > Our mailing lists are far, far superior, than any alternative forum setups I've ever seen. Taking into account the last time you checked out a forum setup, then your arguments are understandable. If you take phpBB then of course it's going to be comparing shit with shit, but that's not really what we're discussing. > Then why do you even visit HN? There's no formatting tools available here, is there? How is HN related to to this discussion? It would be useful if it too had some formatting tools. Was this supposed to be a "gotcha"-moment? Because it failed miserably. > I do insist it's [...] but indeed "far superior". All that I can say here is that you have made up your mind and you have made your decision in the past. Thankfully more and more projects abandon mailing lists and convert to something more accessible, more usable, they're also doing far better, with far more new people joining. Hm, in a sense people can be thankful even, it acts as a signal for people, if the dead hand of the past is there and doesn't want to let go. If you wish continue as you have for the past few decades, do so, I can't force you to reconsider. But don't come crying when you lack new people contributing and maintaining.

by cnst 6y ago

Avamander 6y ago

> Because none of the issues you identify seem to apply to the BSDs. A lot of those issues are fundamental to mailing lists and e-mails. They do apply. > What formatting tools? Why would I need any formatting tools to hack the kernel? Having text formatting tools is really useful when communicating things. If you don't need it, okay, that doesn't negate its usefulness for others. > Security mechanisms? DKIM/DMARC/SPF. The rest of your paragraph is tangential, applies to the entire world and all tech where identities come to play, with a few smaller exceptions. > So, how about all those forums fix their "forum config" problems, and then maybe we'll talk? You do realize that's an absolutely ridiculous demand, it's up to the project to have a configuration they like. > GitHub Issues, for example, doesn't even support threading within an Issue; unlike the mailing lists since decades ago. That's a feature, not a bug. > So, even in such basic aspects, mailing lists are already superior Yet in so many others it lags so much behind. In all the aspects you very conveniently did not address in your last comment. > Microsoft disables (without notice) GitHub accounts of anyone who's a citizen or a visitor of the geographic places There are more options out there in addition to GitHub. > Mailing lists are by far superior to what GitHub or any other popular forums actually do offer as of today. That's a very absolute statement. Just calling it "superior" would've been a stretch, "far superior" is borderline delusional.

cnst 6y ago
So, you haven't provided a single strong argument for how forums are superior, deferred proper functionality to a "forum config" that doesn't even exist anywhere, dismissed subthreading as a "bug" even though it's clearly been a very useful feature for decades, and then sprinkled the whole thing with "security" concerns that aren't even solved by the forums, and which noone really cares about anyways? Solid arguments to commence a change! > it's up to the project to have a configuration they like Exactly. Our mailing lists are far, far superior, than any alternative forum setups I've ever seen. I do insist it's not just "superior" to most forums, but indeed "far superior". > Having text formatting tools is really useful when communicating things. Then why do you even visit HN? There's no formatting tools available here, is there?
- Avamander 6y ago
  > So, you haven't provided a single strong argument for how forums are superior I did, and actually you did too, but you also conveniently ignored those points. Which lets me know they hit the target very well. > Our mailing lists are far, far superior, than any alternative forum setups I've ever seen. Taking into account the last time you checked out a forum setup, then your arguments are understandable. If you take phpBB then of course it's going to be comparing shit with shit, but that's not really what we're discussing. > Then why do you even visit HN? There's no formatting tools available here, is there? How is HN related to to this discussion? It would be useful if it too had some formatting tools. Was this supposed to be a "gotcha"-moment? Because it failed miserably. > I do insist it's [...] but indeed "far superior". All that I can say here is that you have made up your mind and you have made your decision in the past. Thankfully more and more projects abandon mailing lists and convert to something more accessible, more usable, they're also doing far better, with far more new people joining. Hm, in a sense people can be thankful even, it acts as a signal for people, if the dead hand of the past is there and doesn't want to let go. If you wish continue as you have for the past few decades, do so, I can't force you to reconsider. But don't come crying when you lack new people contributing and maintaining.