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The Apple M1 [1] has set the bar for hybrid 4+4 big.LITTLE laptop-class silicon: > The M1 has four high-performance and four energy-efficient cores, providing

The Apple M1 [1] has set the bar for hybrid 4+4 big.LITTLE laptop-class silicon: > The M1 has four high-performance and four energy-efficient cores, providing a configuration similar to ARM DynamIQ and Intel's hybrid Lakefield and Alder Lake processors. Apple, like other ARM-based smartphone/tablet-class silicon designers, has selected a System-on-a-Chip (SoC) architecture. Intel and AMD are incrementally modifying their discreet processor architectures to provide competitive hybrid architectures together with some SoC aspects as AnandTech describes in detail [2]. The Wired article also describes Qualcomm as a competitor coming from the ARM big.LITTLE side of the equation while leaving out other competitors like Samsung and (the defunct?) Huawei/HiSilicon. Nvidia, the current leader in discreet GPU silicon and former competitor in the smartphone/tablet-class silicon market, has announced the acquisition of ARM [3], which adds an interesting plot twist to the competitive landscape. The hybrid core architectures require new schedulers in the OS kernel. Transitioning to new/alternative Instruction Set Architectures, like x64 to ARM64, also requires a translation layer like Apple's Rosetta 2 to help the software transition. Microsoft Windows currently lags being Apple on both of these fronts. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_M1#Architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_M1#Architecture [2] https://www.anandtech.com/show/15877/intel-hybrid-cpu-lakefield-all-you-need-to-know https://www.anandtech.com/show/15877/intel-hybrid-cpu-lakefi... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_Ltd.#Changes_of_ownership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_Ltd.#Changes_of_ownership

adrian_b 6y ago
The 4+4 big.LITTLE configuration is not "laptop-class". It is the right configuration for a CPU with 10 W or 12 W TDP, which is OK only for a fanless ultrabook, like MB Air. For the laptops intended for more serious work you want a CPU with 15 W to 60 W TDP, in which case the right configuration must have at least 8 big cores.
- sradman 6y ago
  As Apple did not publish official TDP numbers for the M1, AnandTech tried to estimate the TDP of the M1 in the Mac Mini [1]: > In multi-threaded scenarios, power highly depends on the workload. In memory-heavy workloads where the CPU utilisation isn’t as high, we’re seeing 18W active power, going up to around 22W in average workloads, and peaking around 27W in compute heavy workloads. These figures are generally what you’d like to compare to “TDPs” of other platforms, although again to get an apples-to-apples comparison you’d need to further subtract some of the overhead as measured on the Mac mini here – my best guess would be a 20 to 24W range. Lakefield is a 1+4 hybrid architecture with one big Intel Core (the laptop CPU brand name) core and four little Intel Atom cores. I'm not sure what the ideal x+Y combination is for big.LITTLE hybrid silicon for the laptop-class nor the ideal TDP target. From what I've seen, the M1 seems to be the processor to beat along price-per-peformance, performance-per-watt, and all-day-battery dimensions. Independently, the SoC GPU and Universal Memory seem to be in a class of their own. [1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-teste...
- kayodelycaon 6y ago
  Benchmarks show a passively cooled M1 out performing Apple's highest end laptops with actively-cooled 8-core 9i CPUs.
  - africanboy 6y ago
    I think you meant i9 M1 wins in single core benchmarks, but it loses in multi core. Also, it beats 9th generation i9 for mobile, not the newer ones (that are still 14nm Vs the 5nm of the M1) I'm not an Intel fan and I think it lost edge over the years, but M1 doesn't beat the i9 in pure performances, only in controlled benchmarks where the conditions are favourable to M1 Of course the M1 on Apple laptops are faster than every other Apple laptop, but that's only natural. https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested/5 https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-teste... EDIT: for the downvoters An image is worth thousands words https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph16252/119365.png https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph16252/119365.png
    - africanboy 6y ago
      I love the fact that Apple zealots are the new Talibans I wonder why they don't apply as a religion, scientologists are more open minded... p.s. did anybody notice that he wrote 9i, a CPU that does not exist?
      - sradman 6y ago
        From the Hacker News Guidelines [1], in comments: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        africanboy 6y ago
        I'm always kind. But if I post a graph and Apple zealots downvote me because the graph contradicts their belief, what's the kind way to expose "zealousness"? Should I ask for forgiveness in front of God Steve? Or should I be judged and punished by the San Cupertino Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition? What I understand is that being a cult is not against HN guidelines. Which is ok, but at least don't blame me for seeing it... p.s. did you notice that OP wrote 9i which is a CPU that does not exist? Can you correct someone else's mistake on HN when it's from a member of the Sparro...ehm Apple cult?
- JustFinishedBSG 6y ago
  > For the laptops intended for more serious work you want a CPU with 15 W to 60 W TDP, I didn't know we were measuring performance in TDP. /s All benchmarks show Apple's 12W chip crushing Intel 45w chips (that boost up to 60w).
  - adrian_b 6y ago
    In large laptops, i.e. gaming laptops or mobile workstations, the CPUs with 45 W nominal TDP are actually configured with TDPs up to 60 W or 65 W (the steady-state value). The boost power is higher in those cases, e.g. 72 W or even 90 W. This is true for example in my Dell Precision laptop, where the CPU is configured for 60 W steady-state TDP, because the laptop has good cooling, which can easily cope with that, unlike in thinner laptops. Your sarcasm is misplaced, because the TDP is the factor that determines the achievable multi-threaded performance of any computer. Given the domain of application for any computer, e.g. handheld, tablet, thin laptop, thick laptop, desktop and so on, you get certain dimensions, which, together with the available cooling technologies, determine the TDP. The TDP, together with the characteristics of the CMOS process used for making the CPU, determine the multi-threaded performance of the CPU, if the CPU designers are competent and do not make mistakes leading to lower performance than optimal. Therefore, while the high single-thread performance of Apple M1 is due mainly to its clever design with high average IPC, its multi-threaded performance is determined mostly by the newer 5-nm CMOS process. The higher efficiency of the 5-nm process would have allowed a higher performance within a laptop TDP, but Apple has chosen, for now, to reduce their costs by using only 4 big cores, instead of reaching the performance that would have possible for them when using more big cores. It is likely that next year Apple will introduce models that will be limited by TDP, not by chip size, like this year. Until then, Intel & AMD will be better for multi-threaded tasks and equal in single-threaded (but at much higher power per core).
- lowbloodsugar 6y ago
  "All serious lightbulbs need to draw 60 to 120 watts."
  - africanboy 6y ago
    IIRC the current x86 processors consume more power because they have more IO lanes that are still on 14-12nm (even AMD on their 7nm CPU)

adrian_b 6y ago

The 4+4 big.LITTLE configuration is not "laptop-class". It is the right configuration for a CPU with 10 W or 12 W TDP, which is OK only for a fanless ultrabook, like MB Air. For the laptops intended for more serious work you want a CPU with 15 W to 60 W TDP, in which case the right configuration must have at least 8 big cores.

sradman 6y ago
As Apple did not publish official TDP numbers for the M1, AnandTech tried to estimate the TDP of the M1 in the Mac Mini [1]: > In multi-threaded scenarios, power highly depends on the workload. In memory-heavy workloads where the CPU utilisation isn’t as high, we’re seeing 18W active power, going up to around 22W in average workloads, and peaking around 27W in compute heavy workloads. These figures are generally what you’d like to compare to “TDPs” of other platforms, although again to get an apples-to-apples comparison you’d need to further subtract some of the overhead as measured on the Mac mini here – my best guess would be a 20 to 24W range. Lakefield is a 1+4 hybrid architecture with one big Intel Core (the laptop CPU brand name) core and four little Intel Atom cores. I'm not sure what the ideal x+Y combination is for big.LITTLE hybrid silicon for the laptop-class nor the ideal TDP target. From what I've seen, the M1 seems to be the processor to beat along price-per-peformance, performance-per-watt, and all-day-battery dimensions. Independently, the SoC GPU and Universal Memory seem to be in a class of their own. [1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-teste...
kayodelycaon 6y ago
Benchmarks show a passively cooled M1 out performing Apple's highest end laptops with actively-cooled 8-core 9i CPUs.
- africanboy 6y ago
  I think you meant i9 M1 wins in single core benchmarks, but it loses in multi core. Also, it beats 9th generation i9 for mobile, not the newer ones (that are still 14nm Vs the 5nm of the M1) I'm not an Intel fan and I think it lost edge over the years, but M1 doesn't beat the i9 in pure performances, only in controlled benchmarks where the conditions are favourable to M1 Of course the M1 on Apple laptops are faster than every other Apple laptop, but that's only natural. https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested/5 https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-teste... EDIT: for the downvoters An image is worth thousands words https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph16252/119365.png https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph16252/119365.png
  - africanboy 6y ago
    I love the fact that Apple zealots are the new Talibans I wonder why they don't apply as a religion, scientologists are more open minded... p.s. did anybody notice that he wrote 9i, a CPU that does not exist?
    - sradman 6y ago
      From the Hacker News Guidelines [1], in comments: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - africanboy 6y ago
        I'm always kind. But if I post a graph and Apple zealots downvote me because the graph contradicts their belief, what's the kind way to expose "zealousness"? Should I ask for forgiveness in front of God Steve? Or should I be judged and punished by the San Cupertino Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition? What I understand is that being a cult is not against HN guidelines. Which is ok, but at least don't blame me for seeing it... p.s. did you notice that OP wrote 9i which is a CPU that does not exist? Can you correct someone else's mistake on HN when it's from a member of the Sparro...ehm Apple cult?
JustFinishedBSG 6y ago
> For the laptops intended for more serious work you want a CPU with 15 W to 60 W TDP, I didn't know we were measuring performance in TDP. /s All benchmarks show Apple's 12W chip crushing Intel 45w chips (that boost up to 60w).
- adrian_b 6y ago
  In large laptops, i.e. gaming laptops or mobile workstations, the CPUs with 45 W nominal TDP are actually configured with TDPs up to 60 W or 65 W (the steady-state value). The boost power is higher in those cases, e.g. 72 W or even 90 W. This is true for example in my Dell Precision laptop, where the CPU is configured for 60 W steady-state TDP, because the laptop has good cooling, which can easily cope with that, unlike in thinner laptops. Your sarcasm is misplaced, because the TDP is the factor that determines the achievable multi-threaded performance of any computer. Given the domain of application for any computer, e.g. handheld, tablet, thin laptop, thick laptop, desktop and so on, you get certain dimensions, which, together with the available cooling technologies, determine the TDP. The TDP, together with the characteristics of the CMOS process used for making the CPU, determine the multi-threaded performance of the CPU, if the CPU designers are competent and do not make mistakes leading to lower performance than optimal. Therefore, while the high single-thread performance of Apple M1 is due mainly to its clever design with high average IPC, its multi-threaded performance is determined mostly by the newer 5-nm CMOS process. The higher efficiency of the 5-nm process would have allowed a higher performance within a laptop TDP, but Apple has chosen, for now, to reduce their costs by using only 4 big cores, instead of reaching the performance that would have possible for them when using more big cores. It is likely that next year Apple will introduce models that will be limited by TDP, not by chip size, like this year. Until then, Intel & AMD will be better for multi-threaded tasks and equal in single-threaded (but at much higher power per core).
lowbloodsugar 6y ago
"All serious lightbulbs need to draw 60 to 120 watts."
- africanboy 6y ago
  IIRC the current x86 processors consume more power because they have more IO lanes that are still on 14-12nm (even AMD on their 7nm CPU)