8 ms·

Perhaps I should be more concerned about the security and privacy issues with smart TV's, but what really annoys me is the (un)planned obsolescence aspect. In a

by Exmoor 6y ago

Perhaps I should be more concerned about the security and privacy issues with smart TV's, but what really annoys me is the (un)planned obsolescence aspect. In a few years I know that manufacturer will have zero interest in keeping the software updated to support new services and updated apps and I'll wind up with a bloated, broken UI. I'd much rather that "Smart" TV's just include their own proprietary stick that plugged into the HDMI input and could be replaced with a current generation streaming stick in a few years. I know there are good economic and business reasons for not doing this, but it'd be a real selling point for me.

andi999 6y ago
Probably the hdmi port does not exist in 10 years anymore
- emteycz 6y ago
  I call bullshit. The VGA port is still alive and well. Wanna bet $50?
  - willis936 6y ago
    Show me a GPU made in the last five years that is even capable of outputting VGA.
    - r00t4ccess 6y ago
      https://www.newegg.com/msi-geforce-gt-710-gt-710-2gd3h-lp/p/N82E16814127933 https://www.newegg.com/msi-geforce-gt-710-gt-710-2gd3h-lp/p/...
      - leetcrew 6y ago
        that card was launched in 2014...
    - busterarm 6y ago
      https://www.zotac.com/us/product/graphics_card/zotac-geforce-gt-1030-2gb-gddr5-hdmi-vga-low-profile https://www.zotac.com/us/product/graphics_card/zotac-geforce...
    - cozzyd 6y ago
      I thought that the DVI port had VGA pins most of the time. A lot of projectors are still VGA only at various places you might give a talk
      - willis936 6y ago
        Only DVI-I carries analog. Look for the four dot grid on the left of the connector. If the dots are not there then there is no analog video output.
    - bydo 6y ago
      Show me a projector made in the last five years that isn't capable of inputting VGA? I mean, don't actually, they do exist (mostly in the realm of inexpensive portable mini-projectors). They're the exception, though, not the norm. VGA is most certainly still around (and, I agree, shouldn't be, as it is also still terrible), just not in the market that spends $800 on GPUs.
    - m463 6y ago
      This is now done by dongles that convert to VGA.
      - willis936 6y ago
        There are no options that push pixel clocks that native RAMDACs can. The Delock 26297 (which needs to be imported from Germany) can hit about 250 MHz, which is enough for most uses. Unfortunately, the connector is total rubbish and causes serious signal integrity issues. I have two and one of them can barely hit 150 MHz. There is a USB-C option which can supposedly hit 300 MHz. RAMDACs hit 400 MHz. It’s a real shame they’re not in new cards. Hence my point: VGA is dead because it isn’t in new hardware.
  - heelix 6y ago
    It is dying. I've got a mess of monitors that are VGA/DVI, and the video cards don't always have that output anymore. Some do... but watching them fade. VGA maxes out at 1920x1200 or so before you need to make the jump to DVI. Think dual link DVI starts at 2560x1440. If you know of a 3080 that has DVI, I'm interested.
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      it's dying off as a source, but my guess is it will remain as an input for a long time. the TV I bought this year still has component video inputs. when's the last time you bought a piece of equipment that only outputs analog video?
      - ant6n 6y ago
        How else can i plug in my Super Nintendo?
        arthurfm 6y ago
        Open Source Scan Converter [1] or Analogue Super Nt [2]. [1] https://videogameperfection.com/products/open-source-scan-converter/ https://videogameperfection.com/products/open-source-scan-co... [2] https://www.analogue.co/super-nt https://www.analogue.co/super-nt
    - pengaru 6y ago
      "up to 2048×1536px (QXGA) @85 Hz (388 MHz)." from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VGA_connector#Cable_quality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VGA_connector#Cable_quality
  - pengaru 6y ago
    VGA is a far more future-proof analog interface than these digital drm-friendly "successors". For some time you required VGA to drive the highest resolutions because HDMI hadn't yet delivered the necessary bandwidth.
  - m463 6y ago
    HDCP is also alive and well. (3.5mm headphone, not so much)
    - ValentineC 6y ago
      I find it really interesting that Apple chose to include 3.5mm jacks in their M1 MacBooks.
      - m463 6y ago
        Aren't they dual analog + optical out?
        kayodelycaon 6y ago
        Not since 2015. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202730 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202730
        tim-- 6y ago
        They have not been for a few years now. I think the 2012 mac books were the last to have them?
- deergomoo 6y ago
  I wouldn’t count on it. There will always be a need to connect external peripherals, and they’ll just continue to update the spec to expand its capabilities. HDMI 2.1 supports 4K120 and 8K60, I expect that alone will be sufficient into the 2030s.
aaron_m04 6y ago
> I'd much rather that "Smart" TV's just include their own proprietary stick that plugged into the HDMI input and could be replaced with a current generation streaming stick in a few years. You mean like a ChromeCast?
- awalton 6y ago
  There's at least 3 different manufacturers that make these things. There's absolutely no reason to point out ChromeCast over Roku or Amazon's FireStick, e.g.
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    I don’t think the parent was intending to privilege one over the others, just pointing out that these things already exist.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  Was glad to see this response here. It's similar to me with the situation we had where high-end automobiles used to put a lot of effort into their touchscreen "entertainment" systems: systems that always sucked and made an otherwise-luxury car feel like a PC Junior. Thankfully, most of them have switched over to Android Auto or Apple CarPlay, where I get a MUCH better UI that, importantly, I can update on a much more frequent basis than my entire car, from companies that know how to build digital UIs. High end "dumb TV" plus Chromecast (or whatever competitor) is the best solution for me.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    It's really amazing. A few years ago I had to drive a Mercedes S-Class every so often. Ironically, it was easily the least pleasant driving experience I've ever had short of a U-Haul. This was entirely because they decided to get creative with the controls, and did a bad job of it. The first time I drove it, I ended up having to pull off the road in order to safely figure out how to change the radio station. Operating the cruise control wasn't worth the effort. And I never did figure out advanced tasks like turning off the air conditioning.
awalton 6y ago
It's going to be ridiculously annoying once the security professionals start finding exploits for smart TVs and have them worming around the internet - the vendors will be glacially slow to respond, if they do at all. It's going to take an act of market regulation to make them even try to patch old tvs and ensure basic functionality of disconnected tvs. Especially if this aggressive autodiscovery and autojoin stuff ever proves out, and/or they take the logical next step of throwing in a low speed cellular modem like auto manufacturers have. We're going completely backwards by introducing cruftware into tvs that will be thrown away by the vendor in a year or two - however long it takes for a warranty on that batch to run out. Whatever it takes to sell the next TV at Black Friday I guess.
- LeCow 6y ago
  That's why standards like ETSI 303 645 exist and legislation is being created. Although most of it is around "just buy a new one when this is unsupported".
SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
I bought my last TV, a Samsung, about 6 months after it was released. As soon as I connected it, I got an alert that Samsung was discontinuing support for their Community 3D or some stuff app you were supposed to social media on your TV. It all made me consider that Samsung forgot their core business in TVs should have been the TV. I now own an LG OLED that is amazing, and coincidently black holed at the router.
- roel_v 6y ago
  I have a Samsung from 2014 or so and Netflix, Youtube still work great (used every day) and there are dozens of other apps available for all sorts of purposes. My wife uses the national news one several times a werk. And yes I also have a chromecast but the ux of requiring your phone to play something on the tv is vastly inferior to just using the tv. I'm not quite sure what all.the whining about smart tvs is about, maybe it really is bad when using budget tvs, but for mine it has worked great for years (so does the dlna client on it btw; it's a bit spartan but works just fine, and we've watched a lot of content through it).
dec0dedab0de 6y ago
I just got a projector that came with a roku plugged into the hdmi port.
jackweirdy 6y ago
I am hopeful that some kind of “OpenWRT for TVs” will emerge. A lot (maybe most?) TVs seem to either ship Linux or be capable of running it
- m463 6y ago
  Unfortunately they are probably GPL2, which RMS once said "and then I had to add freedom 0 to let you actually RUN the software" before coming out with GPL3.
  - dehrmann 6y ago
    If Linux went GPLv3, device makers would probably begrudgingly use VxWorks before dealing with the GPL.
    - Arch-TK 6y ago
      Would it make much of a difference when those same device makers which it would affect normally lock down their devices completely and don't ever expose any of the functionality of the linux kernel to the end user? Would we miss out on a few patches for drivers?
jwr 6y ago
Speaking of unplanned obsolescence: My Samsung TV came with a remote that has a fairly prominent "EXTRA" button that I never used. Until I pressed it one day and it told me that the "EXTRA" service (whatever it was), was terminated a couple of years ago. Well, no big regret there, but I find it ridiculous that buttons on your remote become "obsolete" and perform no function apart from telling you that some service or other (which you never even knew about) is no longer available.
- mysterydip 6y ago
  Had the same thing with a roku remote and (I think) some music service that was one of the three non-reprogrammable "shortcut" buttons on it. That remote is pretty minimal (power, d-pad, ok button, and those three buttons) so it sticks out like a sore thumb.
mnd999 6y ago
Mostly of the “smart” features on my Panasonic are now dead. Netflix still works, YouTube kinda works and that’s about it. It’s frustrating but it’s hard to see how to get around it. Long term support is very expensive and tv sales in the mass market seem to be very price sensitive. Seems to be a choice between pricing it such that you can support it, and not sell any or price it competitively and have no cash to update it. I guess that’s where the ad-supported idea came from as well. The only way I see this changing is if hackers figure out how to mass-brick them.
- john-tells-all 6y ago
  To be clear, Panasonic stopped making TVs in 2016. We have one, and it's wonderful :)
  - mnd999 6y ago
    They stopped making their own panels in 2016. They still make TVs - I know you know this but you comment is confusing. Mine is also pre-2016 and pretty decent.
    - snypher 6y ago
      There's no Panasonic TVs at my Best Buy today. I think they stopped selling TVs altogether in the US market around 2016.
  - ornornor 6y ago
    I have a 2018 Panasonic 4K OLED and it’s a fantastic TV. So good they they’re reference displays for calibrating movies in Hollywood apparently. It’s well made, it’s one centimeter thick, and while the smart features still work, I only seldom use Netflix (because it’s 4K, but there is hardly ever anything I want on Netflix.) All the rest goes through Kodi (which can also play YouTube without ads from my phone) and my receiver for airplay or Tidal. The TV works just fine if not connected to the internet and I use nextdns on it to block all the telemetry along with a firewall rule to not allow any other dns. There are no ads anywhere in the menus, it’s got tons of video calibration options, turns on in two seconds flat, and the menus are fast (although I never need them) But I think they only sell in Europe now, they’ve left US and Canada.
unwiredben 6y ago
We have teams at Roku releasing new firmware images for all of the smart TVs that have shipped on our platform, going back to the original "Liberty" models from 2014. It's a pain, especially with streaming services getting more and more bloated, but we've managed to keep them all going. In our case, we've got a financial incentive that some TV manufacturers don't have, as people keeping the older TVs going and connected to the Roku service means more people using channels where we participate in the advertising or subscription revenue.
- smokey_the_bear 6y ago
  I mean, six years old isn't exceptionally old for a TV, so it's not great to hear what a pain it is. My parents had the same TV in the living room for over 20 years. My current TV is a Vizio from 2012 and there is nothing wrong with it.
  - casefields 6y ago
    I'm still rocking a high end plasma from the late 2000s that I bought for the World Cup. Pictures still fantastic. What's left out is that Roku is no longer a neutral third party device. Those "channels" are actually rent-seeking ala the App Stores. That's why they fought with HBO Max to be a middle man and collect their troll toll: https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/hbo-max-roku-talks-warnermedia-2021-movie-streaming-1234846259/ https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/hbo-max-roku-talks-war... The annoying cable contract negotiations that customers despise are now going to be a feature of cord cutting. That's a crummy development.
- oceanghost 6y ago
  I worked for one of ROKU's suppliers for a decade. I know I'd had been in a support role for a few things related to ROKU, and I salute the attitude but I can guarantee you its not normal. At my former employer, the moment your contract ran out, we shut down your servers. In addition the way our accounting was structured, sales/project management were judged by revenue, committing to sustaining engineering was the surest way to tank your bonus-- all expense, no profit. Do I agree this is a terrible and unethical business practice? Yes. Do I know what to do about it? no...
Semaphor 6y ago
I caved in and got a smart one (Xiaomi 4S) a few weeks ago. It’s actually not as bad as I imagined. I can still press a single button to switch the input source to what I want to, and it will remember that input. Though I guess if you want to use it as a TV instead of a living room computer screen, that’s still a problem; but then from all the reviews, it sucks as a TV in several ways.
jhoechtl 6y ago
Wouldn't be a HQ 5K-monitor be what you are looking for? And the UI comes of Amazon Fire Stick?
heavyset_go 6y ago
It's the same issue with phones. If manufacturers settled on a hardware configuration that prioritized hardware compatibility and discovery like x86 computers and ARM servers do by implementing things like BIOS or EFI, ACPI, unlocked bootloaders, etc, we'd be able to treat these devices the same way we do with our desktops and laptops. Theoretically, we'd be able to download some generic OS image and load them onto devices like we can with Linux ISOs and x86 laptops whenever manufacturers decide to stop supporting older devices. Instead, each device is a custom hardware configuration, with peripherals hardcoded to specific addresses instead of attached to enumerable buses. Unfortunately, it's much cheaper and easier to design custom SoCs with custom bootloaders for each device than it is to go the compatibility and discovery route that x86 manufacturers did decades ago, and that ARM servers do today. Sadly, as manufacturers turn to custom ARM SoCs for laptops and desktops, they're also walking away from hardware compatibility and discovery, which means that the days of being able to load generic Linux images on your computers are coming to an end. For example, with some ARM Chromebooks and all ARM Macs, you can't just boot a generic ARM Linux ISO, because ARM SoCs are custom and unique hardware configurations that lack ACPI etc. This is the reason you need to use a custom Linux image for Raspberry Pis, instead of using generic ARM ISOs like you can on ARM servers, and it's the same reason that a lot of work needs to be done before Linux will work well on M1 Macs.
- fsflover 6y ago
  > Theoretically, we'd be able to download some generic OS image and load them onto devices like we can with Linux ISOs and x86 laptops whenever manufacturers decide to stop supporting older devices. That’s exactly how GNU/Linux smartphones Librem 5 and Pinephone work.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    You don't have to use images that were built for the specific SoCs they're built on? For example, on ARM servers I can load this generic ISO[1], and it will work. I can't do that with a Raspberry Pi, however. Do those phones have UEFI and ACPI support, or SBSA[2] support? If so, can you point me to where I can read more about it? Google is failing me here. [1] https://ubuntu.com/download/server/arm https://ubuntu.com/download/server/arm [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Base_System_Architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Base_System_Architectur...
sliken 6y ago
Heh, you don't have to wait a few years. Just open the box and find a awkard UI, terrible Menu interface, and generally poor experience. Try any new TV, then try a new Roku. I find the roku experience much better, and it's got clients for anything you can name. I use Netflix, Amazon prime, and youtube mostly, but there's 100s of others. Roku seems pretty good with keeping their devices up to date software wise for many years. It's also way cheaper to upgrade a roku than replacing a TV.

by Exmoor 6y ago

andi999 6y ago

Probably the hdmi port does not exist in 10 years anymore

emteycz 6y ago
I call bullshit. The VGA port is still alive and well. Wanna bet $50?
- willis936 6y ago
  Show me a GPU made in the last five years that is even capable of outputting VGA.
  - r00t4ccess 6y ago
    https://www.newegg.com/msi-geforce-gt-710-gt-710-2gd3h-lp/p/N82E16814127933 https://www.newegg.com/msi-geforce-gt-710-gt-710-2gd3h-lp/p/...
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      that card was launched in 2014...
  - busterarm 6y ago
    https://www.zotac.com/us/product/graphics_card/zotac-geforce-gt-1030-2gb-gddr5-hdmi-vga-low-profile https://www.zotac.com/us/product/graphics_card/zotac-geforce...
  - cozzyd 6y ago
    I thought that the DVI port had VGA pins most of the time. A lot of projectors are still VGA only at various places you might give a talk
    - willis936 6y ago
      Only DVI-I carries analog. Look for the four dot grid on the left of the connector. If the dots are not there then there is no analog video output.
  - bydo 6y ago
    Show me a projector made in the last five years that isn't capable of inputting VGA? I mean, don't actually, they do exist (mostly in the realm of inexpensive portable mini-projectors). They're the exception, though, not the norm. VGA is most certainly still around (and, I agree, shouldn't be, as it is also still terrible), just not in the market that spends $800 on GPUs.
  - m463 6y ago
    This is now done by dongles that convert to VGA.
    - willis936 6y ago
      There are no options that push pixel clocks that native RAMDACs can. The Delock 26297 (which needs to be imported from Germany) can hit about 250 MHz, which is enough for most uses. Unfortunately, the connector is total rubbish and causes serious signal integrity issues. I have two and one of them can barely hit 150 MHz. There is a USB-C option which can supposedly hit 300 MHz. RAMDACs hit 400 MHz. It’s a real shame they’re not in new cards. Hence my point: VGA is dead because it isn’t in new hardware.
- heelix 6y ago
  It is dying. I've got a mess of monitors that are VGA/DVI, and the video cards don't always have that output anymore. Some do... but watching them fade. VGA maxes out at 1920x1200 or so before you need to make the jump to DVI. Think dual link DVI starts at 2560x1440. If you know of a 3080 that has DVI, I'm interested.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    it's dying off as a source, but my guess is it will remain as an input for a long time. the TV I bought this year still has component video inputs. when's the last time you bought a piece of equipment that only outputs analog video?
    - ant6n 6y ago
      How else can i plug in my Super Nintendo?
      - arthurfm 6y ago
        Open Source Scan Converter [1] or Analogue Super Nt [2]. [1] https://videogameperfection.com/products/open-source-scan-converter/ https://videogameperfection.com/products/open-source-scan-co... [2] https://www.analogue.co/super-nt https://www.analogue.co/super-nt
  - pengaru 6y ago
    "up to 2048×1536px (QXGA) @85 Hz (388 MHz)." from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VGA_connector#Cable_quality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VGA_connector#Cable_quality
- pengaru 6y ago
  VGA is a far more future-proof analog interface than these digital drm-friendly "successors". For some time you required VGA to drive the highest resolutions because HDMI hadn't yet delivered the necessary bandwidth.
- m463 6y ago
  HDCP is also alive and well. (3.5mm headphone, not so much)
  - ValentineC 6y ago
    I find it really interesting that Apple chose to include 3.5mm jacks in their M1 MacBooks.
    - m463 6y ago
      Aren't they dual analog + optical out?
      - kayodelycaon 6y ago
        Not since 2015. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202730 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202730
      - tim-- 6y ago
        They have not been for a few years now. I think the 2012 mac books were the last to have them?
deergomoo 6y ago
I wouldn’t count on it. There will always be a need to connect external peripherals, and they’ll just continue to update the spec to expand its capabilities. HDMI 2.1 supports 4K120 and 8K60, I expect that alone will be sufficient into the 2030s.

aaron_m04 6y ago

> I'd much rather that "Smart" TV's just include their own proprietary stick that plugged into the HDMI input and could be replaced with a current generation streaming stick in a few years. You mean like a ChromeCast?

awalton 6y ago
There's at least 3 different manufacturers that make these things. There's absolutely no reason to point out ChromeCast over Roku or Amazon's FireStick, e.g.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  I don’t think the parent was intending to privilege one over the others, just pointing out that these things already exist.
hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
Was glad to see this response here. It's similar to me with the situation we had where high-end automobiles used to put a lot of effort into their touchscreen "entertainment" systems: systems that always sucked and made an otherwise-luxury car feel like a PC Junior. Thankfully, most of them have switched over to Android Auto or Apple CarPlay, where I get a MUCH better UI that, importantly, I can update on a much more frequent basis than my entire car, from companies that know how to build digital UIs. High end "dumb TV" plus Chromecast (or whatever competitor) is the best solution for me.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  It's really amazing. A few years ago I had to drive a Mercedes S-Class every so often. Ironically, it was easily the least pleasant driving experience I've ever had short of a U-Haul. This was entirely because they decided to get creative with the controls, and did a bad job of it. The first time I drove it, I ended up having to pull off the road in order to safely figure out how to change the radio station. Operating the cruise control wasn't worth the effort. And I never did figure out advanced tasks like turning off the air conditioning.

awalton 6y ago

It's going to be ridiculously annoying once the security professionals start finding exploits for smart TVs and have them worming around the internet - the vendors will be glacially slow to respond, if they do at all. It's going to take an act of market regulation to make them even try to patch old tvs and ensure basic functionality of disconnected tvs. Especially if this aggressive autodiscovery and autojoin stuff ever proves out, and/or they take the logical next step of throwing in a low speed cellular modem like auto manufacturers have. We're going completely backwards by introducing cruftware into tvs that will be thrown away by the vendor in a year or two - however long it takes for a warranty on that batch to run out. Whatever it takes to sell the next TV at Black Friday I guess.

LeCow 6y ago
That's why standards like ETSI 303 645 exist and legislation is being created. Although most of it is around "just buy a new one when this is unsupported".

SV_BubbleTime 6y ago

I bought my last TV, a Samsung, about 6 months after it was released. As soon as I connected it, I got an alert that Samsung was discontinuing support for their Community 3D or some stuff app you were supposed to social media on your TV. It all made me consider that Samsung forgot their core business in TVs should have been the TV. I now own an LG OLED that is amazing, and coincidently black holed at the router.

roel_v 6y ago
I have a Samsung from 2014 or so and Netflix, Youtube still work great (used every day) and there are dozens of other apps available for all sorts of purposes. My wife uses the national news one several times a werk. And yes I also have a chromecast but the ux of requiring your phone to play something on the tv is vastly inferior to just using the tv. I'm not quite sure what all.the whining about smart tvs is about, maybe it really is bad when using budget tvs, but for mine it has worked great for years (so does the dlna client on it btw; it's a bit spartan but works just fine, and we've watched a lot of content through it).

dec0dedab0de 6y ago

I just got a projector that came with a roku plugged into the hdmi port.

jackweirdy 6y ago

I am hopeful that some kind of “OpenWRT for TVs” will emerge. A lot (maybe most?) TVs seem to either ship Linux or be capable of running it

m463 6y ago
Unfortunately they are probably GPL2, which RMS once said "and then I had to add freedom 0 to let you actually RUN the software" before coming out with GPL3.
- dehrmann 6y ago
  If Linux went GPLv3, device makers would probably begrudgingly use VxWorks before dealing with the GPL.
  - Arch-TK 6y ago
    Would it make much of a difference when those same device makers which it would affect normally lock down their devices completely and don't ever expose any of the functionality of the linux kernel to the end user? Would we miss out on a few patches for drivers?

jwr 6y ago

Speaking of unplanned obsolescence: My Samsung TV came with a remote that has a fairly prominent "EXTRA" button that I never used. Until I pressed it one day and it told me that the "EXTRA" service (whatever it was), was terminated a couple of years ago. Well, no big regret there, but I find it ridiculous that buttons on your remote become "obsolete" and perform no function apart from telling you that some service or other (which you never even knew about) is no longer available.

mysterydip 6y ago
Had the same thing with a roku remote and (I think) some music service that was one of the three non-reprogrammable "shortcut" buttons on it. That remote is pretty minimal (power, d-pad, ok button, and those three buttons) so it sticks out like a sore thumb.

mnd999 6y ago

Mostly of the “smart” features on my Panasonic are now dead. Netflix still works, YouTube kinda works and that’s about it. It’s frustrating but it’s hard to see how to get around it. Long term support is very expensive and tv sales in the mass market seem to be very price sensitive. Seems to be a choice between pricing it such that you can support it, and not sell any or price it competitively and have no cash to update it. I guess that’s where the ad-supported idea came from as well. The only way I see this changing is if hackers figure out how to mass-brick them.

john-tells-all 6y ago
To be clear, Panasonic stopped making TVs in 2016. We have one, and it's wonderful :)
- mnd999 6y ago
  They stopped making their own panels in 2016. They still make TVs - I know you know this but you comment is confusing. Mine is also pre-2016 and pretty decent.
  - snypher 6y ago
    There's no Panasonic TVs at my Best Buy today. I think they stopped selling TVs altogether in the US market around 2016.
- ornornor 6y ago
  I have a 2018 Panasonic 4K OLED and it’s a fantastic TV. So good they they’re reference displays for calibrating movies in Hollywood apparently. It’s well made, it’s one centimeter thick, and while the smart features still work, I only seldom use Netflix (because it’s 4K, but there is hardly ever anything I want on Netflix.) All the rest goes through Kodi (which can also play YouTube without ads from my phone) and my receiver for airplay or Tidal. The TV works just fine if not connected to the internet and I use nextdns on it to block all the telemetry along with a firewall rule to not allow any other dns. There are no ads anywhere in the menus, it’s got tons of video calibration options, turns on in two seconds flat, and the menus are fast (although I never need them) But I think they only sell in Europe now, they’ve left US and Canada.

unwiredben 6y ago

We have teams at Roku releasing new firmware images for all of the smart TVs that have shipped on our platform, going back to the original "Liberty" models from 2014. It's a pain, especially with streaming services getting more and more bloated, but we've managed to keep them all going. In our case, we've got a financial incentive that some TV manufacturers don't have, as people keeping the older TVs going and connected to the Roku service means more people using channels where we participate in the advertising or subscription revenue.

smokey_the_bear 6y ago
I mean, six years old isn't exceptionally old for a TV, so it's not great to hear what a pain it is. My parents had the same TV in the living room for over 20 years. My current TV is a Vizio from 2012 and there is nothing wrong with it.
- casefields 6y ago
  I'm still rocking a high end plasma from the late 2000s that I bought for the World Cup. Pictures still fantastic. What's left out is that Roku is no longer a neutral third party device. Those "channels" are actually rent-seeking ala the App Stores. That's why they fought with HBO Max to be a middle man and collect their troll toll: https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/hbo-max-roku-talks-warnermedia-2021-movie-streaming-1234846259/ https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/hbo-max-roku-talks-war... The annoying cable contract negotiations that customers despise are now going to be a feature of cord cutting. That's a crummy development.
oceanghost 6y ago
I worked for one of ROKU's suppliers for a decade. I know I'd had been in a support role for a few things related to ROKU, and I salute the attitude but I can guarantee you its not normal. At my former employer, the moment your contract ran out, we shut down your servers. In addition the way our accounting was structured, sales/project management were judged by revenue, committing to sustaining engineering was the surest way to tank your bonus-- all expense, no profit. Do I agree this is a terrible and unethical business practice? Yes. Do I know what to do about it? no...

Semaphor 6y ago

I caved in and got a smart one (Xiaomi 4S) a few weeks ago. It’s actually not as bad as I imagined. I can still press a single button to switch the input source to what I want to, and it will remember that input. Though I guess if you want to use it as a TV instead of a living room computer screen, that’s still a problem; but then from all the reviews, it sucks as a TV in several ways.

jhoechtl 6y ago

Wouldn't be a HQ 5K-monitor be what you are looking for? And the UI comes of Amazon Fire Stick?

heavyset_go 6y ago

It's the same issue with phones. If manufacturers settled on a hardware configuration that prioritized hardware compatibility and discovery like x86 computers and ARM servers do by implementing things like BIOS or EFI, ACPI, unlocked bootloaders, etc, we'd be able to treat these devices the same way we do with our desktops and laptops. Theoretically, we'd be able to download some generic OS image and load them onto devices like we can with Linux ISOs and x86 laptops whenever manufacturers decide to stop supporting older devices. Instead, each device is a custom hardware configuration, with peripherals hardcoded to specific addresses instead of attached to enumerable buses. Unfortunately, it's much cheaper and easier to design custom SoCs with custom bootloaders for each device than it is to go the compatibility and discovery route that x86 manufacturers did decades ago, and that ARM servers do today. Sadly, as manufacturers turn to custom ARM SoCs for laptops and desktops, they're also walking away from hardware compatibility and discovery, which means that the days of being able to load generic Linux images on your computers are coming to an end. For example, with some ARM Chromebooks and all ARM Macs, you can't just boot a generic ARM Linux ISO, because ARM SoCs are custom and unique hardware configurations that lack ACPI etc. This is the reason you need to use a custom Linux image for Raspberry Pis, instead of using generic ARM ISOs like you can on ARM servers, and it's the same reason that a lot of work needs to be done before Linux will work well on M1 Macs.

fsflover 6y ago
> Theoretically, we'd be able to download some generic OS image and load them onto devices like we can with Linux ISOs and x86 laptops whenever manufacturers decide to stop supporting older devices. That’s exactly how GNU/Linux smartphones Librem 5 and Pinephone work.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  You don't have to use images that were built for the specific SoCs they're built on? For example, on ARM servers I can load this generic ISO[1], and it will work. I can't do that with a Raspberry Pi, however. Do those phones have UEFI and ACPI support, or SBSA[2] support? If so, can you point me to where I can read more about it? Google is failing me here. [1] https://ubuntu.com/download/server/arm https://ubuntu.com/download/server/arm [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Base_System_Architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Base_System_Architectur...

sliken 6y ago

Heh, you don't have to wait a few years. Just open the box and find a awkard UI, terrible Menu interface, and generally poor experience. Try any new TV, then try a new Roku. I find the roku experience much better, and it's got clients for anything you can name. I use Netflix, Amazon prime, and youtube mostly, but there's 100s of others. Roku seems pretty good with keeping their devices up to date software wise for many years. It's also way cheaper to upgrade a roku than replacing a TV.