15 ms·

What’s the best non-smart TV sold today?

223 points by thomas 6y ago

alkonaut 6y ago
Can’t see why the non-smart option would be better than the no-internet option. I’d try to find one that can be upgraded from a USB stick so you don’t even need to connect it occasionally.
- wronglebowski 6y ago
  I believe several different manufacturers will attempt to connect to any open Wi-Fi in the area.
  - Dylovell 6y ago
    Wow, thanks for the heads up!
  - e2le 6y ago
    I don't see why they can't make a deal with Comcast to have access to their public Wi-Fi network so that their Smart TV's "just work".
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - jakub_g 6y ago
    There were some discussions in the same spirit on previous smart TV threads on HN but I'm not fully sure if there was any real example, or was it just hypothetical discussion which became an urban legend. Any particular examples other than "people say"?
  - speedgoose 6y ago
    Did that happen for real?
    - gruez 6y ago
      If you check the other comments in this thread, there aren't well documented reports, just hearsay. Given that this is so trivial to replicate (all you need is a smart tv and router/smartphone tethering), you'd think that if the claim were true there would be well documented cases of it happening.
  - malka 6y ago
    Soon, I'll have to put a WiFi jammer near my TV.
    - tokamak-teapot 6y ago
      Surround it in a chicken wire Faraday cage?
  - coin 6y ago
    Wait until TVs contain their own cellular modem that can connect without your approval
- timwaagh 6y ago
  If you want to constrain yourself from even having that option. Say you only want to watch dvd's or presentations on it but not browse internet/yt/other major 'filler' time wasters. If id buy a tv id probably get a dumb one because of this.
- thom 6y ago
  Smart TVs have awful menus and incredibly slow boot times even when you turn the internet off.
  - alkonaut 6y ago
    You don’t need to use the smart features. The point is the best TV for the money is a smart one.
    - simlevesque 6y ago
      Did you read the comment you replied to ? There are no mentions of using the smart features at all, he's talking about useless menus and slow boot time.
      - alkonaut 6y ago
        I assumed by ”menus” he meant navigating those smart features. Not sure what other menus are frequently used? Settings? Inputs? If you even need to navigate a menu (fast or slow) for everyday use, it must have a terrible UX to begin with. The smart features are indeed slow on most TVs. Boot times vary.
        EricE 6y ago
        On some Samsung TVs I have used, and least one model of either TCL or Visio non-smart menu functions are slow and clumsy. Input switching on one "smart" TV in particular (I'm pretty sure it was a Visio) was like a four step process instead of a simple button press. It was really eye opening just how bad designers could screw up something that should literally be a one button press. You can't assume anything with new electronics - some of the UI designs are stupendously horrible.
  - tokamak-teapot 6y ago
    We have a Sony from maybe 8 years ago and it’s fine. Boot time is only a few seconds. Certainly I hardly notice any wait when I grab the Apple TV or Switch and wake it up. It switches to the appropriate input automatically as it wakes. That’s about all we use it for. It’s a Smart TV in theory but we have never used its ‘features’. It’s not connected to any network and it doesn’t seem to try to connect to wifi sneakily. Audio is connected out to an amp and speakers and sounds fine. If it ever breaks (not sure if LCD has a finite lifespan) we’d probably get something similar but would be checking it has the same ability to just act like a monitor with auto input switching and audio out.
lwansbrough 6y ago
The article mentions them but one of the best options available are commercial displays. No frills, usually matte with minimal bezel.
- baq 6y ago
  Also usually more expensive for less hardware features. Unfortunately they don’t make much sense as home appliances.
  - kazinator 6y ago
    Saw one on Craiglist recently. One bleeping HDMI port, haha!
    - edoceo 6y ago
      You have a display input switch, with multiple sources there, and one cable to the display - al la KVM switches of old
    - EricE 6y ago
      Stereo receiver? Also has amplifier for 7.1 surround sound speakers. I'm continually amazed at the amount of people who think a receiver/speaker system is exotic. Sigh...
- Exmoor 6y ago
  Unfortunately, commercial displays are typically much more expensive and lack a lot of the modern picture-quality features most people would consider requirements at this point like 4K and HDR.
  - rsync 6y ago
    There was, indeed, a sweet spot between 2010-2012 (or so) wherein 4k content and HDR, etc., were not yet widespread but very nice commercial display panels @ 1920x1080 had dropped in price to around $1000 or $1200. I bought a brand new NEC P461 (you've seen these used as departure/arrival boards in airports) in 2011 ... it's a heavy duty piece of industrial gear, was totally "dumb" in terms of networking and features, and had a very small bezel. It has been perfect these past ten years and I use it every day as the fourth monitor on my mac pro ... but my grandparent is correct: 4k commercial displays with high end picture features either don't exist or are extremely expensive. Consider: if you need a 4k commercial display, you are encourage to simply combine 4 1080p displays into a 2x2 video wall. For this reason, there is not as much demand from end users for high resolution commercial displays as perhaps you'd think there would be ... EDIT: I was curious as to what the landscape was like at the end of 2020 and I see: https://www.samsung.com/us/business/products/displays/4k-uhd/qm-series/qmr-series-50-lh50qmrebgcxza/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/products/displays/4k-uhd... (which is the Samsung LH50QMREBGCXZA) selling for roughly $1000 USD (or $1200 CAD). I see that it is a "Cisco Certified Compatible Display" which gives me pause ... but I think I will get one of these and see how it behaves ... EDIT 2: The samsung model is described as having "Built-in Wi-Fi and Bluetooth" which is sort of a deal breaker ... we'll see.
compsciphd 6y ago
the best non smart TVs are crap relative to the "smart" TVs. the top of the line TVs made by LG, Panasonic, Sony, Samsung (and vizio, tcl, hisense.....) are all smart. If you insist on a TV without smart features, you will be sacrificing picture quality. the closest you can get is with a projector, and even projectors suffer when it comes to HDR content where you want both brightness and as inky blacks as you can get.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  Why not use one of the large computer monitors on the market?
  - arsome 6y ago
    Find me an OLED computer monitor please.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - dvtrn 6y ago
      Too rich for my bank account, but: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/new-alienware-55-oled-gaming-monitor-aw5520qf/apd/210-auds/monitors-monitor-accessories?gacd=9614064-1012-5761040-266794588-0&dgc=st&ds_rl=1291002&gclid=CjwKCAiA25v_BRBNEiwAZb4-ZbrP0WcfFr8-37h6iUz_BDLQQV1H_LOzyIj4rVdVGjlKMijp0t1PvhoCDawQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/new-alienware-55-oled-gaming...
      - gambiting 6y ago
        I mean, LG makes a 48" OLED TV that works great as a monitor, why not use that if size isn't an issue?
        dvtrn 6y ago
        As another commenter in the thread mentioned, televisions and high end gaming displays are often optimized differently (I don’t know what this means for an OLED display, just speaking generally here-so take that as far as pleasant conversation will permit) Which admittedly isn’t something a lot of people care about, though I would reckon if one is about to drop three big ones on a video display source it probably matters more to them than it would to the rest of us. Just speculation on my part, though.
swanson 6y ago
I really hated SmartTVs and would actively avoid them, but I recently got one of the Roku branded TVs and it's actually quite good. Roku has always been great for me in terms of software updates, availability of streaming services, and good-enough UI that everyone in the family can use it.
- afavour 6y ago
  I got a Roku device too, and just didn't connect it to the internet. Works fine for me. I'd still prefer an unconnected option, but this will do.
- heyitsme 6y ago
  Aren't roku devices notorious for gathering data on how you use their hardware and what you watch? In fact as far as I know you can't even use their TVs without actually creating an account with them. If this is still true, it's completely NUTS!
  - quaffapint 6y ago
    Roku does like to log all your actions, but just use something like pi-hole and it's nicely blocked.
    - gruez 6y ago
      You're placing too much trust into the effectiveness of pi-hole and its associated filter lists. Here are some failure modes I can think of: * using fallback hardcoded IPs when DNS fails * using DoH so it's impossible to tamper with the response * using the same domain for spying as other critical functions * new domains might not show up on the filter lists right away, and if the TV keeps a backlog of failed requests, all your viewing history might be uploaded when that happens
  - unwiredben 6y ago
    When you set up a Roku TV, you have the option to never connect to the Internet and use it as a dumb TV. In that mode, no WiFi or Ethernet connection is active and there's no connection to a Roku account. If you've already connected the TV, you can factory reset it to an unconnected state.
francis-io 6y ago
Anything dumb and oled? I'd like to upgrade my LG 1080p but not yet found a top quality image but with dumb internals. So far, I just don't connect to Wi-Fi. Something I have noticed with my smart tv is that it takes a significant time to boot up before it's able to inputs... This is progress, I guess...
- rhexs 6y ago
  You can buy commercial OLED displays for a lot more. Considering there really aren’t any mass produced OLED computer monitors yet, this is a rather limited market. The LG OLEDs run Linux and have been rooted in the past with public CVEs/PoCs, so I’m sure a moderately talented reverse engineer could get code execution and strip out a lot of the crap. Probably easier to start a community around that instead of hoping for a good commercial model.
  - ant6n 6y ago
    Doing reverse engineering on a tv sounds like it costs hundreds or thousands in time, with few guarantees.
    - mark-r 6y ago
      And probably illegal too, due to DMCA.
- asdff 6y ago
  It's like we are right back to waiting for the CRT to warm up. Why do all consumer electronics have such latency these days? Buy a $20k car and the software lags turning on the FM radio. This is the world we've built.
  - mark-r 6y ago
    Worse, the software lags turning OFF the radio. If you left the radio running a little loud last time you turned off the car, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it for 30 seconds. The on/off switch and volume knob are ineffective. And this was a $30k car.
3gg 6y ago
"It seems like almost every TV sold today is a smart one, which means a lack of control of what’s happening on our device" "Just Don’t Connect It To the Internet [...] You can then go ahead and add a Nvidia Shield or Apple TV and connect that to the internet." Trading one surveillance system for another.
- tpetry 6y ago
  Didnt someone in the comments a few months ago report that their smart tv connected to the open wifi of neighbors?
- santoshalper 6y ago
  Yeah, but there is something to be said for picking who you do business with. That allows you to "negotiate" the best deal for yourself.
  - mark-r 6y ago
    If by "negotiate" you mean buy something else or DIY, then yeah. Otherwise good luck.
duxup 6y ago
I just choose not to connect any TV to the internet. Any internet connected device goes through an HDMI switch. Hopefully that continues to work for me.
- lock-free 6y ago
  You have to watch out for the TVs that attempt to connect to public networks. So pray your neighbors have passwords on their wifi and didn't opt in to Comcast's hotspots.
  - diego_moita 6y ago
    Even if the TV set does that but you only use the dumb features then there isn't too much to spy, right? It should be hard for the TV to recognize what you play connected from a cable. (Edit: I know they can do it but please read the next paragraph). Besides, if you block commercials from the smart features, what does the manufacturer gains by spying on you? Without incentives why bother the work?
    - cma 6y ago
      Some of these TVs have been found to upload screenshots of what is being displayed: https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/samsung-smart-tvs-are-set-to-upload-screenshots-of-what-youre-watching/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/samsung-smart-tvs...
      - LanceH 6y ago
        Making copies of material under copyright?
        treesknees 6y ago
        I'm not sure why they used "screenshot", because they actually take a fingerprint/hash of the material being displayed. It's much more compact and way more practical.
lobster45 6y ago
I suggest to buy a large computer monitor
- jancsika 6y ago
  Honestly-- what would the difference be between the pined-for "non-smart tv" and a large monitor? Also-- irony of the "monitor" being the tech that doesn't spy on the user
  - knowaveragejoe 6y ago
    I think you'll have a hard time finding a computer monitor at TV sizes(say, 50"+) that has modern display features like 4k, OLED, HDR, etc.
OneFunFellow 6y ago
800+ comments from ~3 months ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24666968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24666968
BooneJS 6y ago
Keep in mind that several routers have the ability to block devices from the network. For instance, Google WiFi’s “family WiFi” allows you to pause or schedule pauses for individual devices. This can help you get firmware when you need it and cut out ads/smart features at all other times.
- knowaveragejoe 6y ago
  I guess it depends on how loudly the TVs complain about not having internet connectivity.
haunter 6y ago
Highly recommend https://www.rtings.com/ https://www.rtings.com/ The best TV reviewing site by far
- agotterer 6y ago
  I also recommend rtings. I used it extensively when I was researching two new recent TV purchases. Their review and analysis is very detailed and technical.
Exmoor 6y ago
Perhaps I should be more concerned about the security and privacy issues with smart TV's, but what really annoys me is the (un)planned obsolescence aspect. In a few years I know that manufacturer will have zero interest in keeping the software updated to support new services and updated apps and I'll wind up with a bloated, broken UI. I'd much rather that "Smart" TV's just include their own proprietary stick that plugged into the HDMI input and could be replaced with a current generation streaming stick in a few years. I know there are good economic and business reasons for not doing this, but it'd be a real selling point for me.
- andi999 6y ago
  Probably the hdmi port does not exist in 10 years anymore
  - emteycz 6y ago
    I call bullshit. The VGA port is still alive and well. Wanna bet $50?
    - willis936 6y ago
      Show me a GPU made in the last five years that is even capable of outputting VGA.
      - r00t4ccess 6y ago
        https://www.newegg.com/msi-geforce-gt-710-gt-710-2gd3h-lp/p/N82E16814127933 https://www.newegg.com/msi-geforce-gt-710-gt-710-2gd3h-lp/p/...
        leetcrew 6y ago
        that card was launched in 2014...
      - busterarm 6y ago
        https://www.zotac.com/us/product/graphics_card/zotac-geforce-gt-1030-2gb-gddr5-hdmi-vga-low-profile https://www.zotac.com/us/product/graphics_card/zotac-geforce...
Cactus2018 6y ago
like the last time this question was asked on HN, this blog post is really about the amazon affiliate links. Short answer is "Sceptre 65" Class 4K UHD LED TV HDR U650CV-U" https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-65-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-HDR-U650CV-U/48874705 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-65-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-HD... However, If you are in the market for a modern TV - be sure to look at the OLED technology - OLED is amazing. This video shows an example of how the OLEDs self-light - and how that tech is great for viewing star-fields https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=226kWMOVGGc&t=190s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=226kWMOVGGc&t=190s
- meowster 6y ago
  Sceptre also makes a 75" 4K TV Part of the listing says it is a smart TV, the other part says it is a dumb TV. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-75-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-HDR-U750CV-U/55427162 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-75-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-HD...
  - brandonpatram 6y ago
    I have this TV, along with a Sceptre 55in. It is "dumb" and no different than the smaller models.
ThePhysicist 6y ago
If you're worried about privacy just don't connect it to the Internet and buy a smart TV stick of your choice instead that you plug into the HDMI port of the TV (or use a Raspberry Pi if you don't trust those either). Problem solved. Probably 99 % of people are fine with owning a smart TV, so it's clear that manufacturers won't cater to the 1 % that are not fine with it.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  People have reported smart TVs connecting to open wifi when they aren't manually connected.
  - mortenjorck 6y ago
    I keep seeing this mentioned, but no one ever refers to a specific brand that has been observed doing this. It's plausible, but who’s doing it?
  - THE_PUN_STOPS 6y ago
    Just open the case and disconnect the wifi antenna or, in the case of a PCB etched antenna, apply X-acto blade. See! It's opt-in.
    - jankotek 6y ago
      Perfectly valid solution, and it gets downvoted on Hacker News...
      - cgrealy 6y ago
        To be fair, I don’t think most people would consider a solution that voids the warranty on an expensive TV valid...
        jankotek 6y ago
        Hacking used to be about modifying your hardware. Smart TVs are relatively cheap compared to large industrial displays. They are also reliable. If you need large secure (no wifi) display, this is pefectly valid option.
kazinator 6y ago
If you buy a "non-smart TV", unless you plan to use it with an analog tuner or something, you're going to plug in boxes, and those potentially carry the privacy-invading bogey man. There is literally no difference, in this regard, between a dumb TV with a dongle/box plugged in, and a smart TV which has exactly the same thing built-in. The nice thing about a dumb TV, such as the one I have is: - simplicity of operation/configuration. I never have to fiddle with any menus in my dumb TV. You turn it on and it's ready to go. All the HDMI inputs have dedicated buttons on the remote control, so switching inputs is easy. Changing picture mode: dedicated button. Other than for switching inputs, I don't use the TV remote at all. The Android TV box's remote is a beautiful thing of simplicity. Smart TVs running Android TV come with complicated remote controls: the "android box" feature built inside doesn't have its own simple remote (unless you buy an after-market one, I suppose). - portable "brains": the box or dongle you plug into it fits into a coat pocket. Take it anywhere and watch your content (anywhere, modulo possible geographic restrictions, for which you need a VPN). - portable "brains": possibility of upgrading the TV, without the hassle of re-installing apps and logging into each one: just out with the old TV, in with the new. Logging into apps on a new device is particularly a pain if you're mooching logins off friends and relatives! - the ability to shut the TV off, yet have content keep playing and listen to the audio. This is possible if your Android box has an audio jack! I absolutely love this. I hate visual content burning pixels on the screen when I'm just listening to music.
- yegle 6y ago
  You can use your phone and a Chromecast Ultra (not the new Chromecast with Google TV).
  - kazinator 6y ago
    Well, not the specific "you" referring to me; I use my Android Box (Chromecast with Google TV would work also) for Japanese IPTV. This cannot be installed on the plain old Chromecast. Furthermore, that IPTV application, though it runs well on phones, is one of those that doesn't cast. We use casting quite a lot in my household, but only for a handful of things that can't be installed on Android TV. The UX of Chromecast is sub-par compared to just using an installed app with the remote, but Chromecast plugs the gaps: connecting mobile-only content to the living room TV.
nicwolff 6y ago
I have a 55" commercial LG "Wallpaper" OLED and it is "dumb" and gorgeous – and mounts flat to the wall at only 4mm thick! No 4K, no HDR, don't miss them a bit. No apps, no ads, no features at all really; one HDMI in, which I have connected to an Apple TV via a Denon HEOS AVR.
- ljf 6y ago
  Where did you buy it and what did you pay? Any issues at all? What is your main use case? Cheers, sounds like a great option!
- yegle 6y ago
  What's the exact model number of your tv? Searching around it looks like many LG Wallpaper oled TVs are smart ones.
- morsch 6y ago
  4k is incredible on LG's large OLED TVs, I'd totally miss it.
  - SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
    Yea. I picked up a CX, and holy moly, I’d miss 4K, HDR, VRR, and the response time. These commercial units are great; but you aren’t just losing the dumb apps and potential spying/metrics/whatever. You always miss out on real features too. I paid $1800 for a 65CX and immediately black holed its MAC address at the router. I love it.
    - jumelles 6y ago
      > immediately black holed its MAC address at the router. Hoe does this compare with blocking traffic with a PiHole?
      - RamRodification 6y ago
        If I'm not misunderstanding things, a PiHole only "works" if the device actually use it for DNS. If the device uses hardcoded (or whatever) DNS-servers the lookups will bypass your PiHole.
sam_lowry_ 6y ago
Any commercial signage display would do.
soupson 6y ago
Apple, please bring the XDR line to full size TVs and end this bullshit. Making users do deep research on hostile software implementations so they know which features to forego so their privacy is protected... somebody needs to blow this industry up.
- tpetry 6y ago
  There will be not many people willi g to pay the absurd of money required for such an tv. And apple will not release a dumb tv, and even they will at some time deprecate their tv.
  - soupson 6y ago
    That hasn’t really stopped Apple before. Surely the TV would sell more than, say, the Mac Pro or the Pro Display XDR
simlevesque 6y ago
I bought a dumb TV 3 months ago. It's a simple Samsung 1080p TV. I don't need anything else.
deltron3030 6y ago
Build your own TV with a short-throw projector and back projection screen if you a have a spare corner. You can make it look seamless basically like raising a thin artificial wall with a cutout for the screen. You could even hide a subwoofer in that corner and out of sight.
- gruez 6y ago
  Don't projectors have vastly inferior picture quality (eg. contrast, brightness) compared to even mid-range TVs?
  - deltron3030 6y ago
    Depends on what you do, where you in a cinema and found that the picture quality had a negative impact on your enjoyment of the film? For films and sports events projectors are great, for the use as a computer screen or for gaming maybe not so much. Sorry for the late reply btw.
emteycz 6y ago
What if instead of looking for a dumb TV we flashed the ROM with our OS, like a phone?
- tsjq 6y ago
  Good one! Need a CyanogenMod for TVs !!
kmfrk 6y ago
A big problem with TVs right now is the mess that is HDMI 2.1. Companies keep putting out firmware updates to make features like VRR work (somewhat), which is a huge bummer for TV Ethernet-cutters like myself.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
  2.1 is a mess. VRR works great on the LG CX with Xbox, but other hardware might not fare so well. Same issue as USB iirc, you don’t need to support all the features to advertise its X.x compliant. How these special interest groups allow this I have no idea, it only hurts them.
  - kmfrk 6y ago
    I think gamma shifting caused by VRR[^1] is still an issue. A lot of people don't notice it, though. LG have been burning the midnight oil fixing issues people realized once they could finally hook their TVs up to HDMI 2.1 devices in the form of next-gen consoles. There are a lot of HDMI 2.1 features that aren't terribly important, but VRR is definitely one we need to figure out. I feel like we ended up here because VRR was always an optional spec, which is basically Chekhov's technical debt. As always, there's never a perfect time to buy a new TV. [^1]: https://www.gizchina.com/2020/11/07/lg-admits-that-oled-tvs-will-have-problems-with-variable-refresh-rate-vrr-below-120-hz/ https://www.gizchina.com/2020/11/07/lg-admits-that-oled-tvs-...
kubav 6y ago
I have 10 years old samsung smart TV and use it with internet connection but I use firewall on my router to block access to samsung sites. It works perfectly, TV is not able to call home and I can use smart features. If I want to download new firmware it is easy to temporarily disable firewall rules. This is better solution than using 3rd party device as I do not trust them either. But I am not sure if this works for newer models too.
koolk3ychain 6y ago
I just bought a projector. It solves so many issues - first of all it's dumb as fuck (zero "smart" features), two I can only use it once it's dark out and three I always unplug all the cables so if I want to relax I have to go through the effort of plugging it in and focusing it on my wall. On top of all of these benefits, I don't have to look at a stupid piece of plastic and glass mounted to my wall.
- pochamago 6y ago
  I did exactly the same thing, although I've got an old projector screen from a closed elementary school that I mounted on the wall to go with it.
- PascLeRasc 6y ago
  Love my projector. If anyone's on the fence, please know that you don't need a projector screen, your plain wall will be fine. Blackout curtains aren't needed either. And if you have an old nonfunctional fireplace in your home the cable routing is 80% sorted already.
  - koolk3ychain 6y ago
    I do the same thing! I just have a wall I leave bare since I don't really like cluttering all my walls with framed things and art.
- nicbou 6y ago
  I have a portable projector. I enjoy being able to move it around the apartment. It was a great purchase. I prefer a giant 720p screen to large 4k screen, at least for movies.
newhotelowner 6y ago
Best non-smart TV = Hospitality/Healthcare TVs. Majority are not smart. Expensive compare to regular TVs. Tons of configuration option. You can even change the channel numbers like mapping 56.1 to 5. I think cheapest LG 4k 49in is like $400. High end is like $600. Since its not a smart TV, you don't need to connect to the internet or update firmware.
- CharlesW 6y ago
  Very interesting. Does HIPAA compliance require non-smart TVs? Do you have any specific recommendations for how/where to buy these?
  - newhotelowner 6y ago
    Nope. They have smart TVs, but they are $100 extra. Also, it will require a robust application and integration so that we can reset it when guest checks out. Which is not available. Most hotels and hospitals doesn't have ethernet near by. Even though half of the models works with iptv (You can assign a channel to a IPTV steam), I don't know anyone who uses it.
  - newhotelowner 6y ago
    > Do you have any specific recommendations for how/where to buy these? I like LG, but its not available online to purchase. You have to go through a vendor (I fucking hate that). You can buy some model online on ebay and other places, but they are expensive. You can search for "pro:idiom TV". pro:idiom is a encryption protocol that TV provider uses. TVs are connected directly to the provider cable without a cable box. Pro:idiom is required for HBO. Its very easy to obtain a digital copy but HBO still requires that their channel must be encrypted.
corytheboyd 6y ago
Outside of the annoyance of having features that go unused, what is the argument against smart TVs if you don’t connect them to the internet? Every single one I have used works offline, still has the necessary inputs, is still a TV.
- 29083011397778 6y ago
  On my girlfriend's LG smart TV, even something as basic as changing the volume has a noticeable delay. This is a terrible UX, and aggravating beyond description.
  - corytheboyd 6y ago
    I agree that that is aggravating and terrible UX, but what does it have to do with smart TV features?
gingerlime 6y ago
Can’t find it now, but saw some post about a laser projector? I’m guessing it’s not really laser but somehow using better tech. Anybody familiar with those? EDIT: found it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25503327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25503327 but still curious to learn more about the tech if anyone can share
debbiedowner 6y ago
Is there a comprehensive list of how these smart tvs spy on you? Is it worse than owning an amazon alexa? Or is it an attack vector for hackers? Or are people just annoyed at the software on smart tvs?
- Cactus2018 6y ago
  On a recent Smart TV installation, the multiple EULA alluded to the following: * if you use the "Who Where What" 'feature', they will take screen shots of what you are watching, send the screenshots home, use "AI" to identify 'things' in the scene - then display relevant advertising - for example, if there is an washing machine on the screen, they will show ads for that. * if you use their "IP TV" service, they will report home with your usage stats, and share them with advertisers. * if you use the voice activated remote control microphone, they will send the audio clip home. * if you use their built in "apps" (Netflix, Youtube, Disney+, etc) they will report home about your usage (and maybe what you watch? TBD) * they might have an additional content watching service, that takes screenshots and reports them home to identifies of what you are watching. * System setup has an optional 'user profile' (name, age, zip code, etc), if you fill this informat in, they will share with their advertising partners. * They will show advertisements on the "home" screen * they will show advertisements on the "App" screen * they will show advertisements on the "change input source" screen * they will show advertisements on their "IP TV" channels * if you use the built-in web-browser they will report usage home etc
vbernat 6y ago
The main difference between a monitor and a TV is the TV comes with a picture processor (upscaling, noise reduction, motion interpolation, image blur reduction, deeper blacks, etc). I have switched from a low-priced Samsung TV to a mid-range Sony TV and these help a lot. Are dumb TV able to do that as well? If I look at the datasheet of the Sceptre U550CV-UMC, they say they do noise reduction, but not much else. Also, reviews are basically non-existant.
- EricE 6y ago
  Sony takes LG OLED panels and rebrands them with their own signal processing. It REALLY makes a difference if you are into 22fps or 4-4-2 pulldown with movies. Every once in a while Costco has the Sony OLEDs at the same price with the LG's (normally the Sony's are more) - that's the time to buy! Same OLED panel, but Sony's video processing is better so if you catch them when they are price the same pick the Sony!
dognotdog 6y ago
I've recently gotten a Philips 558M1RY, after not wanting to get a Smart TV because of UI and privacy issues. It is marketed as a "Console Monitor." I was going to attach a PC to it anyway, as I don't have traditional cable or an aerial. I gotta say it's a bit pricey for its size, though being 4K and HDR, it is not that bad. And I'm not limited to whatever clunky, ad-riddled UI the vendor chose, but can choose my own clunky UI for watching Netflix, etc. If only HDR support on the PC side wasn't so terrible, it'd be a fantastic setup :/
- kjaftaedi 6y ago
  I've never seen a Philips TV with ads. Is this a US thing? I have a Philips and it is fantastic. No ads, no microphone, simple UI, full keyboard on the back of the remote, and it links natively with my room lighting and matches the colors of the room to the TV (if desired), and it cost less than other comparative models. It's been going strong for about 4 years now with no issues, including the UI.
donarb 6y ago
I bought an LG smart TV because the picture looked good and it was a good price. I have never enabled any smart features and it’s disconnected from the internet. I have an Apple TV box that I use as my tuner.
- owaislone 6y ago
  Do you still need the LG remote to make it work or can you throw it away and still be able to operate or even re-configure the TV later?
  - EricE 6y ago
    Depends. I was able to program my parents DirecTV remotes to do the input switching so they can go between their DirecTV boxes and the Apple TVs - the only LG specific remote code that we needed. I guess the DirecTV remotes learned the volume up/down and power too. Everything else is handled by the other boxes and their respective remotes.
dehrmann 6y ago
I wish there were open source firmware for TVs. I actually appreciate having apps built-in, I just don't want Samsung UI or their spying.
- m463 6y ago
  I suspect they get post-sales revenue, so in goes the spyware. There are basically no companies that can resist this. Even apple with all it's "privacy is a human right" collects all kinds of data and you can't turn it off.
owaislone 6y ago
How do PC monitors today compare with TVs? I wonder if higher end monitors combined with sound bars and chromecast/firestick would be a good enough replacement for the living room TV.
- tsjq 6y ago
  Definitely good. But, very expensive :(
bozzcl 6y ago
Regarding the Pi-Hole issues... a few days ago, I decided to set up firewall rules to block all outgoing DNS and DNS-over-HTTPS traffic, except one coming from my Raspberry Pi. I discovered two things: My nVidia Shield TV was desperately trying to connect to Google's DNS. So yeah, I wasn't being paranoid! My phone's Google Play Store refused to work without using Google's DoH. That's the troublesome side effect if DoH.
- daniellarusso 6y ago
  How do you block DNS-over-HTTPS? Are you MitM’ing the calls? FQDN/IP blacklist?
  - lights0123 6y ago
    No one except Cloudflare is really doing ESNI, so you can just block dns.google.
    - daniellarusso 6y ago
      How would you know if another entity is using ESNI?
      - lights0123 6y ago
        Generally to check I just use Wireshark, but if they're big enough (Google), they'd probably talk about it. Also, ESNI isn't even the default in Firefox, and it's just straight up not implemented in Chrome.
  - bozzcl 6y ago
    Sorry, I meant DNS-over-TLS. I blocked port 853.
tmerr 6y ago
Incidentally I tried to buy a Sceptre TV. It may have been the one mentioned in the article. It arrived with a shattered screen, and I'm not surprised given the flimsy build quality. You're better off buying a smart TV and not using its smart features. I've never connected mine to the internet.
throwaway9870 6y ago
NEC commercial displays, absolutely rock solid.
KingMachiavelli 6y ago
The best non-smart TV technology is probably a decent 4K consumer projector. They cost between 2000 to 3000 dollars. While there are some trade offs (consumer 4k projectors aren't real 4k but rather display 4 1080p images... it's weird), but I haven't run into any of them that come with 'smart' features. The other trade off is that projectors are designed to be for >=100" setups so it's only available as a premium product. Personally, the introduction of micro LED TVs in the next few years may make 100" TVs an affordable reality so I am a bit bearish on jumping into consumer projector market if you haven't already. Best bit is to just not connect the TV to the internet. I have not come across a model that requires an internet connection to work.
jayd16 6y ago
Its not that hard to get a nice TV and ignore the smart features on it, is it? Just never connect it to the internet. No privacy issues either, right?
- Mountain_Skies 6y ago
  In past posts on this subject people have noted two problems. The first is that some smart tvs refuse to complete the setup process without an internet connection. Until the setup process is completed, you cannot use the tv. A few people also mentioned older smart tvs effectively becoming bricked because the manufacturer's servers were shutoff, which put their tv into a mode of demanding internet access or the user couldn't use the tv. The second issue is that some tvs will connect to any open network it can find. If your neighbors or anyone nearby has an open connection, the tv will make use of it. Some theorize that eventually smart tvs will have cellular modems included, so they won't even need to use your home network to phone home. Don't believe any tv has been seen in the wild with a cell modem yet.
  - tsjq 6y ago
    In future, TVs will have custom SIM cards (e-sim?) that'll connect to 5G/4G networks by themselves. No escaping
rubyfan 6y ago
Are any of these TVs jail-breakable? I’m actually OK with smart tech, I just don’t like it being used against me.
throwaway189262 6y ago
Just don't connect your smart TV to the internet. Those saying running a dumb TV with a dongle is just as privacy invading are wrong. Some smart TV's use content recognition to send back everything you watch to the manufacturer. Viewing times, gaming, music, air TV. They can see everything your screen can and it's terrifying. With dongles, they can only see what the dongle can. Not my gaming sessions or watching local games over the air. Beware, some smart TV's will also try to get an internet connection over HDMI.
- olliej 6y ago
  The problem is that they then start nagging you about their lack of ability to spy on you or inject ads in what you’re watching.
EricE 6y ago
Just don't put it on the Internet? What's wrong with that? For "Smart" TVs that have obnoxious screens just to switch inputs - ignore them. I still have a great stereo receiver and it does all my switching. Yes, I prefer non-smart TVs but you can also treat most of them as dumb TVs and they still work fine. If I ever did end up with one that refused to work if it wasn't online I'd take the sucker back. I have ZERO intention to ever use the software bundled with a TV for all of the reasons others talk about in this thread. It's just not that big a deal to use something else as the source for my content.
BGthaOG 6y ago
Im a little late to the party but there is also: https://displayy.studio/ironcast.tv/ https://displayy.studio/ironcast.tv/
newdude116 6y ago
What is the difference between a montior and a TV? Why not buy a monitor and use a Raspberry? Serious question.
- tsjq 6y ago
  At the 40+ inches size, monitors are super expensive than TVs . That's the biggest problem. :(
egberts1 6y ago
I just bought an LG-OLED TV. After the first power up, I just accepted the first EULA and ignore the other 2 buttons. Monitored via WireShark/SquidProxyTLS and have found no malicious or data-revealing data save for occasional upgrade. Out of curiosity, I accepted the two other button after manufacturer reset and blacklisted/PiHole’d the extra TCP/IP/DNS sessions. Resetted it back to just EULA but with full firewall block via its local IP of its WebTV OS. Only errant packets are for searching for a local media server (via multicast DLNA).
deeblering4 6y ago
I’m quite fond of my sceptre. It was ~$200 8 years ago and with a $30 roku it is still going strong. Its a 40” lcd but they make all sorts of other sizes.

223 points by thomas 6y ago

Can’t see why the non-smart option would be better than the no-internet option. I’d try to find one that can be upgraded from a USB stick so you don’t even need to connect it occasionally.

wronglebowski 6y ago
I believe several different manufacturers will attempt to connect to any open Wi-Fi in the area.
- Dylovell 6y ago
  Wow, thanks for the heads up!
- e2le 6y ago
  I don't see why they can't make a deal with Comcast to have access to their public Wi-Fi network so that their Smart TV's "just work".
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- jakub_g 6y ago
  There were some discussions in the same spirit on previous smart TV threads on HN but I'm not fully sure if there was any real example, or was it just hypothetical discussion which became an urban legend. Any particular examples other than "people say"?
- speedgoose 6y ago
  Did that happen for real?
  - gruez 6y ago
    If you check the other comments in this thread, there aren't well documented reports, just hearsay. Given that this is so trivial to replicate (all you need is a smart tv and router/smartphone tethering), you'd think that if the claim were true there would be well documented cases of it happening.
- malka 6y ago
  Soon, I'll have to put a WiFi jammer near my TV.
  - tokamak-teapot 6y ago
    Surround it in a chicken wire Faraday cage?
- coin 6y ago
  Wait until TVs contain their own cellular modem that can connect without your approval
timwaagh 6y ago
If you want to constrain yourself from even having that option. Say you only want to watch dvd's or presentations on it but not browse internet/yt/other major 'filler' time wasters. If id buy a tv id probably get a dumb one because of this.
thom 6y ago
Smart TVs have awful menus and incredibly slow boot times even when you turn the internet off.
- alkonaut 6y ago
  You don’t need to use the smart features. The point is the best TV for the money is a smart one.
  - simlevesque 6y ago
    Did you read the comment you replied to ? There are no mentions of using the smart features at all, he's talking about useless menus and slow boot time.
    - alkonaut 6y ago
      I assumed by ”menus” he meant navigating those smart features. Not sure what other menus are frequently used? Settings? Inputs? If you even need to navigate a menu (fast or slow) for everyday use, it must have a terrible UX to begin with. The smart features are indeed slow on most TVs. Boot times vary.
      - EricE 6y ago
        On some Samsung TVs I have used, and least one model of either TCL or Visio non-smart menu functions are slow and clumsy. Input switching on one "smart" TV in particular (I'm pretty sure it was a Visio) was like a four step process instead of a simple button press. It was really eye opening just how bad designers could screw up something that should literally be a one button press. You can't assume anything with new electronics - some of the UI designs are stupendously horrible.
- tokamak-teapot 6y ago
  We have a Sony from maybe 8 years ago and it’s fine. Boot time is only a few seconds. Certainly I hardly notice any wait when I grab the Apple TV or Switch and wake it up. It switches to the appropriate input automatically as it wakes. That’s about all we use it for. It’s a Smart TV in theory but we have never used its ‘features’. It’s not connected to any network and it doesn’t seem to try to connect to wifi sneakily. Audio is connected out to an amp and speakers and sounds fine. If it ever breaks (not sure if LCD has a finite lifespan) we’d probably get something similar but would be checking it has the same ability to just act like a monitor with auto input switching and audio out.

lwansbrough 6y ago

The article mentions them but one of the best options available are commercial displays. No frills, usually matte with minimal bezel.

baq 6y ago
Also usually more expensive for less hardware features. Unfortunately they don’t make much sense as home appliances.
- kazinator 6y ago
  Saw one on Craiglist recently. One bleeping HDMI port, haha!
  - edoceo 6y ago
    You have a display input switch, with multiple sources there, and one cable to the display - al la KVM switches of old
  - EricE 6y ago
    Stereo receiver? Also has amplifier for 7.1 surround sound speakers. I'm continually amazed at the amount of people who think a receiver/speaker system is exotic. Sigh...
Exmoor 6y ago
Unfortunately, commercial displays are typically much more expensive and lack a lot of the modern picture-quality features most people would consider requirements at this point like 4K and HDR.
- rsync 6y ago
  There was, indeed, a sweet spot between 2010-2012 (or so) wherein 4k content and HDR, etc., were not yet widespread but very nice commercial display panels @ 1920x1080 had dropped in price to around $1000 or $1200. I bought a brand new NEC P461 (you've seen these used as departure/arrival boards in airports) in 2011 ... it's a heavy duty piece of industrial gear, was totally "dumb" in terms of networking and features, and had a very small bezel. It has been perfect these past ten years and I use it every day as the fourth monitor on my mac pro ... but my grandparent is correct: 4k commercial displays with high end picture features either don't exist or are extremely expensive. Consider: if you need a 4k commercial display, you are encourage to simply combine 4 1080p displays into a 2x2 video wall. For this reason, there is not as much demand from end users for high resolution commercial displays as perhaps you'd think there would be ... EDIT: I was curious as to what the landscape was like at the end of 2020 and I see: https://www.samsung.com/us/business/products/displays/4k-uhd/qm-series/qmr-series-50-lh50qmrebgcxza/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/products/displays/4k-uhd... (which is the Samsung LH50QMREBGCXZA) selling for roughly $1000 USD (or $1200 CAD). I see that it is a "Cisco Certified Compatible Display" which gives me pause ... but I think I will get one of these and see how it behaves ... EDIT 2: The samsung model is described as having "Built-in Wi-Fi and Bluetooth" which is sort of a deal breaker ... we'll see.

compsciphd 6y ago

the best non smart TVs are crap relative to the "smart" TVs. the top of the line TVs made by LG, Panasonic, Sony, Samsung (and vizio, tcl, hisense.....) are all smart. If you insist on a TV without smart features, you will be sacrificing picture quality. the closest you can get is with a projector, and even projectors suffer when it comes to HDR content where you want both brightness and as inky blacks as you can get.

chrisco255 6y ago
Why not use one of the large computer monitors on the market?
- arsome 6y ago
  Find me an OLED computer monitor please.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dvtrn 6y ago
    Too rich for my bank account, but: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/new-alienware-55-oled-gaming-monitor-aw5520qf/apd/210-auds/monitors-monitor-accessories?gacd=9614064-1012-5761040-266794588-0&dgc=st&ds_rl=1291002&gclid=CjwKCAiA25v_BRBNEiwAZb4-ZbrP0WcfFr8-37h6iUz_BDLQQV1H_LOzyIj4rVdVGjlKMijp0t1PvhoCDawQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/new-alienware-55-oled-gaming...
    - gambiting 6y ago
      I mean, LG makes a 48" OLED TV that works great as a monitor, why not use that if size isn't an issue?
      - dvtrn 6y ago
        As another commenter in the thread mentioned, televisions and high end gaming displays are often optimized differently (I don’t know what this means for an OLED display, just speaking generally here-so take that as far as pleasant conversation will permit) Which admittedly isn’t something a lot of people care about, though I would reckon if one is about to drop three big ones on a video display source it probably matters more to them than it would to the rest of us. Just speculation on my part, though.

swanson 6y ago

I really hated SmartTVs and would actively avoid them, but I recently got one of the Roku branded TVs and it's actually quite good. Roku has always been great for me in terms of software updates, availability of streaming services, and good-enough UI that everyone in the family can use it.

afavour 6y ago
I got a Roku device too, and just didn't connect it to the internet. Works fine for me. I'd still prefer an unconnected option, but this will do.
heyitsme 6y ago
Aren't roku devices notorious for gathering data on how you use their hardware and what you watch? In fact as far as I know you can't even use their TVs without actually creating an account with them. If this is still true, it's completely NUTS!
- quaffapint 6y ago
  Roku does like to log all your actions, but just use something like pi-hole and it's nicely blocked.
  - gruez 6y ago
    You're placing too much trust into the effectiveness of pi-hole and its associated filter lists. Here are some failure modes I can think of: * using fallback hardcoded IPs when DNS fails * using DoH so it's impossible to tamper with the response * using the same domain for spying as other critical functions * new domains might not show up on the filter lists right away, and if the TV keeps a backlog of failed requests, all your viewing history might be uploaded when that happens
- unwiredben 6y ago
  When you set up a Roku TV, you have the option to never connect to the Internet and use it as a dumb TV. In that mode, no WiFi or Ethernet connection is active and there's no connection to a Roku account. If you've already connected the TV, you can factory reset it to an unconnected state.

francis-io 6y ago

Anything dumb and oled? I'd like to upgrade my LG 1080p but not yet found a top quality image but with dumb internals. So far, I just don't connect to Wi-Fi. Something I have noticed with my smart tv is that it takes a significant time to boot up before it's able to inputs... This is progress, I guess...

rhexs 6y ago
You can buy commercial OLED displays for a lot more. Considering there really aren’t any mass produced OLED computer monitors yet, this is a rather limited market. The LG OLEDs run Linux and have been rooted in the past with public CVEs/PoCs, so I’m sure a moderately talented reverse engineer could get code execution and strip out a lot of the crap. Probably easier to start a community around that instead of hoping for a good commercial model.
- ant6n 6y ago
  Doing reverse engineering on a tv sounds like it costs hundreds or thousands in time, with few guarantees.
  - mark-r 6y ago
    And probably illegal too, due to DMCA.
asdff 6y ago
It's like we are right back to waiting for the CRT to warm up. Why do all consumer electronics have such latency these days? Buy a $20k car and the software lags turning on the FM radio. This is the world we've built.
- mark-r 6y ago
  Worse, the software lags turning OFF the radio. If you left the radio running a little loud last time you turned off the car, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it for 30 seconds. The on/off switch and volume knob are ineffective. And this was a $30k car.

3gg 6y ago

"It seems like almost every TV sold today is a smart one, which means a lack of control of what’s happening on our device" "Just Don’t Connect It To the Internet [...] You can then go ahead and add a Nvidia Shield or Apple TV and connect that to the internet." Trading one surveillance system for another.

tpetry 6y ago
Didnt someone in the comments a few months ago report that their smart tv connected to the open wifi of neighbors?
santoshalper 6y ago
Yeah, but there is something to be said for picking who you do business with. That allows you to "negotiate" the best deal for yourself.
- mark-r 6y ago
  If by "negotiate" you mean buy something else or DIY, then yeah. Otherwise good luck.

duxup 6y ago

I just choose not to connect any TV to the internet. Any internet connected device goes through an HDMI switch. Hopefully that continues to work for me.

lock-free 6y ago
You have to watch out for the TVs that attempt to connect to public networks. So pray your neighbors have passwords on their wifi and didn't opt in to Comcast's hotspots.
- diego_moita 6y ago
  Even if the TV set does that but you only use the dumb features then there isn't too much to spy, right? It should be hard for the TV to recognize what you play connected from a cable. (Edit: I know they can do it but please read the next paragraph). Besides, if you block commercials from the smart features, what does the manufacturer gains by spying on you? Without incentives why bother the work?
  - cma 6y ago
    Some of these TVs have been found to upload screenshots of what is being displayed: https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/samsung-smart-tvs-are-set-to-upload-screenshots-of-what-youre-watching/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/samsung-smart-tvs...
    - LanceH 6y ago
      Making copies of material under copyright?
      - treesknees 6y ago
        I'm not sure why they used "screenshot", because they actually take a fingerprint/hash of the material being displayed. It's much more compact and way more practical.

lobster45 6y ago

I suggest to buy a large computer monitor

jancsika 6y ago
Honestly-- what would the difference be between the pined-for "non-smart tv" and a large monitor? Also-- irony of the "monitor" being the tech that doesn't spy on the user
- knowaveragejoe 6y ago
  I think you'll have a hard time finding a computer monitor at TV sizes(say, 50"+) that has modern display features like 4k, OLED, HDR, etc.

OneFunFellow 6y ago

800+ comments from ~3 months ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24666968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24666968

BooneJS 6y ago

Keep in mind that several routers have the ability to block devices from the network. For instance, Google WiFi’s “family WiFi” allows you to pause or schedule pauses for individual devices. This can help you get firmware when you need it and cut out ads/smart features at all other times.

knowaveragejoe 6y ago
I guess it depends on how loudly the TVs complain about not having internet connectivity.

haunter 6y ago

Highly recommend https://www.rtings.com/ https://www.rtings.com/ The best TV reviewing site by far

agotterer 6y ago
I also recommend rtings. I used it extensively when I was researching two new recent TV purchases. Their review and analysis is very detailed and technical.

Exmoor 6y ago

Perhaps I should be more concerned about the security and privacy issues with smart TV's, but what really annoys me is the (un)planned obsolescence aspect. In a few years I know that manufacturer will have zero interest in keeping the software updated to support new services and updated apps and I'll wind up with a bloated, broken UI. I'd much rather that "Smart" TV's just include their own proprietary stick that plugged into the HDMI input and could be replaced with a current generation streaming stick in a few years. I know there are good economic and business reasons for not doing this, but it'd be a real selling point for me.

andi999 6y ago
Probably the hdmi port does not exist in 10 years anymore
- emteycz 6y ago
  I call bullshit. The VGA port is still alive and well. Wanna bet $50?
  - willis936 6y ago
    Show me a GPU made in the last five years that is even capable of outputting VGA.
    - r00t4ccess 6y ago
      https://www.newegg.com/msi-geforce-gt-710-gt-710-2gd3h-lp/p/N82E16814127933 https://www.newegg.com/msi-geforce-gt-710-gt-710-2gd3h-lp/p/...
      - leetcrew 6y ago
        that card was launched in 2014...
    - busterarm 6y ago
      https://www.zotac.com/us/product/graphics_card/zotac-geforce-gt-1030-2gb-gddr5-hdmi-vga-low-profile https://www.zotac.com/us/product/graphics_card/zotac-geforce...

Cactus2018 6y ago

like the last time this question was asked on HN, this blog post is really about the amazon affiliate links. Short answer is "Sceptre 65" Class 4K UHD LED TV HDR U650CV-U" https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-65-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-HDR-U650CV-U/48874705 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-65-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-HD... However, If you are in the market for a modern TV - be sure to look at the OLED technology - OLED is amazing. This video shows an example of how the OLEDs self-light - and how that tech is great for viewing star-fields https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=226kWMOVGGc&t=190s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=226kWMOVGGc&t=190s

meowster 6y ago
Sceptre also makes a 75" 4K TV Part of the listing says it is a smart TV, the other part says it is a dumb TV. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-75-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-HDR-U750CV-U/55427162 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-75-Class-4K-UHD-LED-TV-HD...
- brandonpatram 6y ago
  I have this TV, along with a Sceptre 55in. It is "dumb" and no different than the smaller models.

ThePhysicist 6y ago

If you're worried about privacy just don't connect it to the Internet and buy a smart TV stick of your choice instead that you plug into the HDMI port of the TV (or use a Raspberry Pi if you don't trust those either). Problem solved. Probably 99 % of people are fine with owning a smart TV, so it's clear that manufacturers won't cater to the 1 % that are not fine with it.

nitrogen 6y ago
People have reported smart TVs connecting to open wifi when they aren't manually connected.
- mortenjorck 6y ago
  I keep seeing this mentioned, but no one ever refers to a specific brand that has been observed doing this. It's plausible, but who’s doing it?
- THE_PUN_STOPS 6y ago
  Just open the case and disconnect the wifi antenna or, in the case of a PCB etched antenna, apply X-acto blade. See! It's opt-in.
  - jankotek 6y ago
    Perfectly valid solution, and it gets downvoted on Hacker News...
    - cgrealy 6y ago
      To be fair, I don’t think most people would consider a solution that voids the warranty on an expensive TV valid...
      - jankotek 6y ago
        Hacking used to be about modifying your hardware. Smart TVs are relatively cheap compared to large industrial displays. They are also reliable. If you need large secure (no wifi) display, this is pefectly valid option.

kazinator 6y ago

If you buy a "non-smart TV", unless you plan to use it with an analog tuner or something, you're going to plug in boxes, and those potentially carry the privacy-invading bogey man. There is literally no difference, in this regard, between a dumb TV with a dongle/box plugged in, and a smart TV which has exactly the same thing built-in. The nice thing about a dumb TV, such as the one I have is: - simplicity of operation/configuration. I never have to fiddle with any menus in my dumb TV. You turn it on and it's ready to go. All the HDMI inputs have dedicated buttons on the remote control, so switching inputs is easy. Changing picture mode: dedicated button. Other than for switching inputs, I don't use the TV remote at all. The Android TV box's remote is a beautiful thing of simplicity. Smart TVs running Android TV come with complicated remote controls: the "android box" feature built inside doesn't have its own simple remote (unless you buy an after-market one, I suppose). - portable "brains": the box or dongle you plug into it fits into a coat pocket. Take it anywhere and watch your content (anywhere, modulo possible geographic restrictions, for which you need a VPN). - portable "brains": possibility of upgrading the TV, without the hassle of re-installing apps and logging into each one: just out with the old TV, in with the new. Logging into apps on a new device is particularly a pain if you're mooching logins off friends and relatives! - the ability to shut the TV off, yet have content keep playing and listen to the audio. This is possible if your Android box has an audio jack! I absolutely love this. I hate visual content burning pixels on the screen when I'm just listening to music.

yegle 6y ago
You can use your phone and a Chromecast Ultra (not the new Chromecast with Google TV).
- kazinator 6y ago
  Well, not the specific "you" referring to me; I use my Android Box (Chromecast with Google TV would work also) for Japanese IPTV. This cannot be installed on the plain old Chromecast. Furthermore, that IPTV application, though it runs well on phones, is one of those that doesn't cast. We use casting quite a lot in my household, but only for a handful of things that can't be installed on Android TV. The UX of Chromecast is sub-par compared to just using an installed app with the remote, but Chromecast plugs the gaps: connecting mobile-only content to the living room TV.

nicwolff 6y ago

I have a 55" commercial LG "Wallpaper" OLED and it is "dumb" and gorgeous – and mounts flat to the wall at only 4mm thick! No 4K, no HDR, don't miss them a bit. No apps, no ads, no features at all really; one HDMI in, which I have connected to an Apple TV via a Denon HEOS AVR.

ljf 6y ago
Where did you buy it and what did you pay? Any issues at all? What is your main use case? Cheers, sounds like a great option!
yegle 6y ago
What's the exact model number of your tv? Searching around it looks like many LG Wallpaper oled TVs are smart ones.
morsch 6y ago
4k is incredible on LG's large OLED TVs, I'd totally miss it.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
  Yea. I picked up a CX, and holy moly, I’d miss 4K, HDR, VRR, and the response time. These commercial units are great; but you aren’t just losing the dumb apps and potential spying/metrics/whatever. You always miss out on real features too. I paid $1800 for a 65CX and immediately black holed its MAC address at the router. I love it.
  - jumelles 6y ago
    > immediately black holed its MAC address at the router. Hoe does this compare with blocking traffic with a PiHole?
    - RamRodification 6y ago
      If I'm not misunderstanding things, a PiHole only "works" if the device actually use it for DNS. If the device uses hardcoded (or whatever) DNS-servers the lookups will bypass your PiHole.

sam_lowry_ 6y ago

Any commercial signage display would do.

soupson 6y ago

Apple, please bring the XDR line to full size TVs and end this bullshit. Making users do deep research on hostile software implementations so they know which features to forego so their privacy is protected... somebody needs to blow this industry up.

tpetry 6y ago
There will be not many people willi g to pay the absurd of money required for such an tv. And apple will not release a dumb tv, and even they will at some time deprecate their tv.
- soupson 6y ago
  That hasn’t really stopped Apple before. Surely the TV would sell more than, say, the Mac Pro or the Pro Display XDR

simlevesque 6y ago

I bought a dumb TV 3 months ago. It's a simple Samsung 1080p TV. I don't need anything else.

deltron3030 6y ago

Build your own TV with a short-throw projector and back projection screen if you a have a spare corner. You can make it look seamless basically like raising a thin artificial wall with a cutout for the screen. You could even hide a subwoofer in that corner and out of sight.

gruez 6y ago
Don't projectors have vastly inferior picture quality (eg. contrast, brightness) compared to even mid-range TVs?
- deltron3030 6y ago
  Depends on what you do, where you in a cinema and found that the picture quality had a negative impact on your enjoyment of the film? For films and sports events projectors are great, for the use as a computer screen or for gaming maybe not so much. Sorry for the late reply btw.

emteycz 6y ago

What if instead of looking for a dumb TV we flashed the ROM with our OS, like a phone?

tsjq 6y ago
Good one! Need a CyanogenMod for TVs !!

kmfrk 6y ago

A big problem with TVs right now is the mess that is HDMI 2.1. Companies keep putting out firmware updates to make features like VRR work (somewhat), which is a huge bummer for TV Ethernet-cutters like myself.

SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
2.1 is a mess. VRR works great on the LG CX with Xbox, but other hardware might not fare so well. Same issue as USB iirc, you don’t need to support all the features to advertise its X.x compliant. How these special interest groups allow this I have no idea, it only hurts them.
- kmfrk 6y ago
  I think gamma shifting caused by VRR[^1] is still an issue. A lot of people don't notice it, though. LG have been burning the midnight oil fixing issues people realized once they could finally hook their TVs up to HDMI 2.1 devices in the form of next-gen consoles. There are a lot of HDMI 2.1 features that aren't terribly important, but VRR is definitely one we need to figure out. I feel like we ended up here because VRR was always an optional spec, which is basically Chekhov's technical debt. As always, there's never a perfect time to buy a new TV. [^1]: https://www.gizchina.com/2020/11/07/lg-admits-that-oled-tvs-will-have-problems-with-variable-refresh-rate-vrr-below-120-hz/ https://www.gizchina.com/2020/11/07/lg-admits-that-oled-tvs-...

kubav 6y ago

I have 10 years old samsung smart TV and use it with internet connection but I use firewall on my router to block access to samsung sites. It works perfectly, TV is not able to call home and I can use smart features. If I want to download new firmware it is easy to temporarily disable firewall rules. This is better solution than using 3rd party device as I do not trust them either. But I am not sure if this works for newer models too.

koolk3ychain 6y ago

I just bought a projector. It solves so many issues - first of all it's dumb as fuck (zero "smart" features), two I can only use it once it's dark out and three I always unplug all the cables so if I want to relax I have to go through the effort of plugging it in and focusing it on my wall. On top of all of these benefits, I don't have to look at a stupid piece of plastic and glass mounted to my wall.

pochamago 6y ago
I did exactly the same thing, although I've got an old projector screen from a closed elementary school that I mounted on the wall to go with it.
PascLeRasc 6y ago
Love my projector. If anyone's on the fence, please know that you don't need a projector screen, your plain wall will be fine. Blackout curtains aren't needed either. And if you have an old nonfunctional fireplace in your home the cable routing is 80% sorted already.
- koolk3ychain 6y ago
  I do the same thing! I just have a wall I leave bare since I don't really like cluttering all my walls with framed things and art.
nicbou 6y ago
I have a portable projector. I enjoy being able to move it around the apartment. It was a great purchase. I prefer a giant 720p screen to large 4k screen, at least for movies.

newhotelowner 6y ago

Best non-smart TV = Hospitality/Healthcare TVs. Majority are not smart. Expensive compare to regular TVs. Tons of configuration option. You can even change the channel numbers like mapping 56.1 to 5. I think cheapest LG 4k 49in is like $400. High end is like $600. Since its not a smart TV, you don't need to connect to the internet or update firmware.

CharlesW 6y ago
Very interesting. Does HIPAA compliance require non-smart TVs? Do you have any specific recommendations for how/where to buy these?
- newhotelowner 6y ago
  Nope. They have smart TVs, but they are $100 extra. Also, it will require a robust application and integration so that we can reset it when guest checks out. Which is not available. Most hotels and hospitals doesn't have ethernet near by. Even though half of the models works with iptv (You can assign a channel to a IPTV steam), I don't know anyone who uses it.
- newhotelowner 6y ago
  > Do you have any specific recommendations for how/where to buy these? I like LG, but its not available online to purchase. You have to go through a vendor (I fucking hate that). You can buy some model online on ebay and other places, but they are expensive. You can search for "pro:idiom TV". pro:idiom is a encryption protocol that TV provider uses. TVs are connected directly to the provider cable without a cable box. Pro:idiom is required for HBO. Its very easy to obtain a digital copy but HBO still requires that their channel must be encrypted.

corytheboyd 6y ago

Outside of the annoyance of having features that go unused, what is the argument against smart TVs if you don’t connect them to the internet? Every single one I have used works offline, still has the necessary inputs, is still a TV.

29083011397778 6y ago
On my girlfriend's LG smart TV, even something as basic as changing the volume has a noticeable delay. This is a terrible UX, and aggravating beyond description.
- corytheboyd 6y ago
  I agree that that is aggravating and terrible UX, but what does it have to do with smart TV features?

gingerlime 6y ago

Can’t find it now, but saw some post about a laser projector? I’m guessing it’s not really laser but somehow using better tech. Anybody familiar with those? EDIT: found it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25503327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25503327 but still curious to learn more about the tech if anyone can share

debbiedowner 6y ago

Is there a comprehensive list of how these smart tvs spy on you? Is it worse than owning an amazon alexa? Or is it an attack vector for hackers? Or are people just annoyed at the software on smart tvs?

Cactus2018 6y ago
On a recent Smart TV installation, the multiple EULA alluded to the following: * if you use the "Who Where What" 'feature', they will take screen shots of what you are watching, send the screenshots home, use "AI" to identify 'things' in the scene - then display relevant advertising - for example, if there is an washing machine on the screen, they will show ads for that. * if you use their "IP TV" service, they will report home with your usage stats, and share them with advertisers. * if you use the voice activated remote control microphone, they will send the audio clip home. * if you use their built in "apps" (Netflix, Youtube, Disney+, etc) they will report home about your usage (and maybe what you watch? TBD) * they might have an additional content watching service, that takes screenshots and reports them home to identifies of what you are watching. * System setup has an optional 'user profile' (name, age, zip code, etc), if you fill this informat in, they will share with their advertising partners. * They will show advertisements on the "home" screen * they will show advertisements on the "App" screen * they will show advertisements on the "change input source" screen * they will show advertisements on their "IP TV" channels * if you use the built-in web-browser they will report usage home etc

vbernat 6y ago

The main difference between a monitor and a TV is the TV comes with a picture processor (upscaling, noise reduction, motion interpolation, image blur reduction, deeper blacks, etc). I have switched from a low-priced Samsung TV to a mid-range Sony TV and these help a lot. Are dumb TV able to do that as well? If I look at the datasheet of the Sceptre U550CV-UMC, they say they do noise reduction, but not much else. Also, reviews are basically non-existant.

EricE 6y ago
Sony takes LG OLED panels and rebrands them with their own signal processing. It REALLY makes a difference if you are into 22fps or 4-4-2 pulldown with movies. Every once in a while Costco has the Sony OLEDs at the same price with the LG's (normally the Sony's are more) - that's the time to buy! Same OLED panel, but Sony's video processing is better so if you catch them when they are price the same pick the Sony!

dognotdog 6y ago

I've recently gotten a Philips 558M1RY, after not wanting to get a Smart TV because of UI and privacy issues. It is marketed as a "Console Monitor." I was going to attach a PC to it anyway, as I don't have traditional cable or an aerial. I gotta say it's a bit pricey for its size, though being 4K and HDR, it is not that bad. And I'm not limited to whatever clunky, ad-riddled UI the vendor chose, but can choose my own clunky UI for watching Netflix, etc. If only HDR support on the PC side wasn't so terrible, it'd be a fantastic setup :/

kjaftaedi 6y ago
I've never seen a Philips TV with ads. Is this a US thing? I have a Philips and it is fantastic. No ads, no microphone, simple UI, full keyboard on the back of the remote, and it links natively with my room lighting and matches the colors of the room to the TV (if desired), and it cost less than other comparative models. It's been going strong for about 4 years now with no issues, including the UI.

donarb 6y ago

I bought an LG smart TV because the picture looked good and it was a good price. I have never enabled any smart features and it’s disconnected from the internet. I have an Apple TV box that I use as my tuner.

owaislone 6y ago
Do you still need the LG remote to make it work or can you throw it away and still be able to operate or even re-configure the TV later?
- EricE 6y ago
  Depends. I was able to program my parents DirecTV remotes to do the input switching so they can go between their DirecTV boxes and the Apple TVs - the only LG specific remote code that we needed. I guess the DirecTV remotes learned the volume up/down and power too. Everything else is handled by the other boxes and their respective remotes.

dehrmann 6y ago

I wish there were open source firmware for TVs. I actually appreciate having apps built-in, I just don't want Samsung UI or their spying.

m463 6y ago
I suspect they get post-sales revenue, so in goes the spyware. There are basically no companies that can resist this. Even apple with all it's "privacy is a human right" collects all kinds of data and you can't turn it off.

owaislone 6y ago

How do PC monitors today compare with TVs? I wonder if higher end monitors combined with sound bars and chromecast/firestick would be a good enough replacement for the living room TV.

tsjq 6y ago
Definitely good. But, very expensive :(

bozzcl 6y ago

Regarding the Pi-Hole issues... a few days ago, I decided to set up firewall rules to block all outgoing DNS and DNS-over-HTTPS traffic, except one coming from my Raspberry Pi. I discovered two things: My nVidia Shield TV was desperately trying to connect to Google's DNS. So yeah, I wasn't being paranoid! My phone's Google Play Store refused to work without using Google's DoH. That's the troublesome side effect if DoH.

daniellarusso 6y ago
How do you block DNS-over-HTTPS? Are you MitM’ing the calls? FQDN/IP blacklist?
- lights0123 6y ago
  No one except Cloudflare is really doing ESNI, so you can just block dns.google.
  - daniellarusso 6y ago
    How would you know if another entity is using ESNI?
    - lights0123 6y ago
      Generally to check I just use Wireshark, but if they're big enough (Google), they'd probably talk about it. Also, ESNI isn't even the default in Firefox, and it's just straight up not implemented in Chrome.
- bozzcl 6y ago
  Sorry, I meant DNS-over-TLS. I blocked port 853.

tmerr 6y ago

Incidentally I tried to buy a Sceptre TV. It may have been the one mentioned in the article. It arrived with a shattered screen, and I'm not surprised given the flimsy build quality. You're better off buying a smart TV and not using its smart features. I've never connected mine to the internet.

throwaway9870 6y ago

NEC commercial displays, absolutely rock solid.

KingMachiavelli 6y ago

The best non-smart TV technology is probably a decent 4K consumer projector. They cost between 2000 to 3000 dollars. While there are some trade offs (consumer 4k projectors aren't real 4k but rather display 4 1080p images... it's weird), but I haven't run into any of them that come with 'smart' features. The other trade off is that projectors are designed to be for >=100" setups so it's only available as a premium product. Personally, the introduction of micro LED TVs in the next few years may make 100" TVs an affordable reality so I am a bit bearish on jumping into consumer projector market if you haven't already. Best bit is to just not connect the TV to the internet. I have not come across a model that requires an internet connection to work.

jayd16 6y ago

Its not that hard to get a nice TV and ignore the smart features on it, is it? Just never connect it to the internet. No privacy issues either, right?

Mountain_Skies 6y ago
In past posts on this subject people have noted two problems. The first is that some smart tvs refuse to complete the setup process without an internet connection. Until the setup process is completed, you cannot use the tv. A few people also mentioned older smart tvs effectively becoming bricked because the manufacturer's servers were shutoff, which put their tv into a mode of demanding internet access or the user couldn't use the tv. The second issue is that some tvs will connect to any open network it can find. If your neighbors or anyone nearby has an open connection, the tv will make use of it. Some theorize that eventually smart tvs will have cellular modems included, so they won't even need to use your home network to phone home. Don't believe any tv has been seen in the wild with a cell modem yet.
- tsjq 6y ago
  In future, TVs will have custom SIM cards (e-sim?) that'll connect to 5G/4G networks by themselves. No escaping

rubyfan 6y ago

Are any of these TVs jail-breakable? I’m actually OK with smart tech, I just don’t like it being used against me.

throwaway189262 6y ago

Just don't connect your smart TV to the internet. Those saying running a dumb TV with a dongle is just as privacy invading are wrong. Some smart TV's use content recognition to send back everything you watch to the manufacturer. Viewing times, gaming, music, air TV. They can see everything your screen can and it's terrifying. With dongles, they can only see what the dongle can. Not my gaming sessions or watching local games over the air. Beware, some smart TV's will also try to get an internet connection over HDMI.

olliej 6y ago
The problem is that they then start nagging you about their lack of ability to spy on you or inject ads in what you’re watching.

EricE 6y ago

Just don't put it on the Internet? What's wrong with that? For "Smart" TVs that have obnoxious screens just to switch inputs - ignore them. I still have a great stereo receiver and it does all my switching. Yes, I prefer non-smart TVs but you can also treat most of them as dumb TVs and they still work fine. If I ever did end up with one that refused to work if it wasn't online I'd take the sucker back. I have ZERO intention to ever use the software bundled with a TV for all of the reasons others talk about in this thread. It's just not that big a deal to use something else as the source for my content.

BGthaOG 6y ago

Im a little late to the party but there is also: https://displayy.studio/ironcast.tv/ https://displayy.studio/ironcast.tv/

newdude116 6y ago

What is the difference between a montior and a TV? Why not buy a monitor and use a Raspberry? Serious question.

tsjq 6y ago
At the 40+ inches size, monitors are super expensive than TVs . That's the biggest problem. :(

egberts1 6y ago

I just bought an LG-OLED TV. After the first power up, I just accepted the first EULA and ignore the other 2 buttons. Monitored via WireShark/SquidProxyTLS and have found no malicious or data-revealing data save for occasional upgrade. Out of curiosity, I accepted the two other button after manufacturer reset and blacklisted/PiHole’d the extra TCP/IP/DNS sessions. Resetted it back to just EULA but with full firewall block via its local IP of its WebTV OS. Only errant packets are for searching for a local media server (via multicast DLNA).

deeblering4 6y ago

I’m quite fond of my sceptre. It was ~$200 8 years ago and with a $30 roku it is still going strong. Its a 40” lcd but they make all sorts of other sizes.