3 ms·

Aside from blending small amounts on hydrogen in existing methane feeds, no one will do this. Pure hydrogen is a dangerous gas that burns much hotter than metha

by yholio 6y ago

Aside from blending small amounts on hydrogen in existing methane feeds, no one will do this. Pure hydrogen is a dangerous gas that burns much hotter than methane, can seep trough the tiniest of cracks that methane/propane cannot and can even penetrate the crystal lattice of common metals such as steel, leading to embrittlement and catastrophic failure under normal use. By the time you upgrade the methane infrastructure to handle it, you will build a whole network all together. And there is also an economic argument: methane/propane work because they are pure energy coming from the ground, you can only burn them to recover it. To produce Hidrogen, you need electric energy, or some very hot source that could be turn to electricity at a high efficiency. It makes zero sense to generate hidrogen in order to burn it for domestic heating, when the equivalent electric energy could give 3-5 more heat using electric heat pumps.

zbrozek 6y ago
It looks like you can blend something in the neighborhood of 10-15% hydrogen into the existing natural gas infrastructure without negative consequence. That's not game changing, but it's a significant environmental improvement if you're using renewables to produce it. It's a fine way to utilize daily or even seasonal renewables overproduction in a useful way without blowing up tons of existing infrastructure. Many diverse steps - some small, some large - are needed to get ourselves to a carbon negative lifestyle.
mojomark 6y ago
>>To produce Hidrogen, you need electric energy, or some very hot source that could be turn to electricity at a high efficiency. This is not a true statement... Aluminum alloys readily liberate H2 from H20 at room temperarure (an exothermic reaction generating roughly equal parts thermal and chemical potential energy - both of which of course can be used for work) [1]. The oxidized aluminum is environmentally benign and can be recycled by applying more energy to deoxydize the product. The 'purification' process is ultimately where the useful energy comes from. The energy to power the purification can come from any number of sources - but as good stewards, we opt for clean energy sources. Al smelting historically produced a lot of carbon, but thanks to R&D by Apple, there are new carbon-free alternatives for this process [2]. At my company we are researching application of this energy infrastructure loop for powering ships (where source water is abundant). Essentalially, the Al+ is your fuel (battery), and from a volumetric energy density perspective (important for ships), you can store about 2X as much as gasoline/diesel - and way better than liquified or compressed H2 storage. However, on a mass energy density perspective (important for automobiles), it is a bit worse (heavier) than hydrocarbon fuels. Again though, each application has it's own constraints when considering an energy storage medium. The automotive or civil sectors aren't the only use-cases for hydrogen fuel cells. One needs to take a look at all sectors to really grasp the global impact. A large part of my job is to explore this big-picutre aspect, because we need to understand the long term infrastructure stability/availability of potential "clean" energy supply chains, and it's VERY complex when you consider process efficiencies over the entire supply chain, raw material abundance and regeneration potential/economics/environmental impacts/speed, geopolitical forces affecting supply chains, the list goes on and on (and on). H2 is an interesting "energy storage" option and it will certainly continue to be researched and applied broadly. 1. PDF - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/aluminium_water_hydrogen.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjkm9f-juztAhUuwFkKHbPvBL4QFjABegQIBxAF&usg=AOvVaw1bMfnlyBgz28F8mDBPA7mN https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... 2. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/05/apple-paves-the-way-for-breakthrough-carbon-free-aluminum-smelting-method/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/05/apple-paves-the-way-f...
- rini17 6y ago
  100% of aluminium is made with electrical energy...
  - mojomark 6y ago
    Actually, Al+ is purified by smelting, which is powered by applying thermal energy to a sample. As I alluded in my comment above, you can generate the thermal energy by any number of modes of energy transmission (electrical, chemical, RF radiation such as concentrated solar, nuclear, etc.). The primary point of the above comment was that you need electrical energy to produce H2. That's a false statement. Al+ can generate H2 without electricity. The important point is that the energy efficiency of any cyclic energy carrier system (batteries/chemical, mechanical, intertial, etc.) is only one, albeit important, factor. Other factors include mass and volumetric energy density, motion/environmental stability, cost, and so forth. The importance of each of these factors is weighted differently based on the application (e.g. automobiles, ships, trains, aircraft, domestic use, etc.).
iso1210 6y ago
> Aside from blending small amounts on hydrogen in existing methane feeds What's "small"? 20% hydrogen on existing grid in place now: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/24/hydrogen-uk-gas-grid-keele-university https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/24/hydrogen... 100% hydrogen trial over next few years: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/scottish-homes-will-use-100-percent-green-hydrogen-in-world-first/ar-BB1buybb https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/scottish-homes-wil... Hydrogen has suddenly skyrocketed up the agenda in Europe this year. There is a pressure group called Hydrogen Europe (which oddly doesn't even have a wikipedia page) which comprises companies like BP, Shell, Total, Equinor, Repsol, Engie, OMV, PKN Orlen, Hellenic Petroleum, and many more. At the same time almost 100% of hydrogen used in europe comes from oil. It concerns me how much government subsidy (both cash and regulations) is being pushed into hydrogen. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-8970377/SMALL-CAP-MOVERS-Hydrogen-companies-lifted-UK-green-recovery-plan.html https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-8970377/... "Hydrogen companies were given a boost this week after the Prime Minister vowed to inject £500million to 'turn water into energy' as part of a 10-point plan for Britain's green recovery. However, critics say the targets are nowhere near enough compared to Germany's and France's respective plans to invest €9billion and €7billion in hydrogen."
- bumbada 6y ago
  Everything has gotten subsidies in the past. Coal got it in Germany, Spain, Rusia,Poland, Norway and of course England. Places like current Bangladesh supported coal mines in England. Certainly oil got it later, but few places in Europe had it compared to coal. Refineries grew costing lots of billions. Then natural gas got it with the investment of big gasoducts. Then it was renewables. Hydrogen is just the next step, because it is the cornerstone of the chemical synthesis process, not just transportation. Hydrogen and electricity are just "vectors". They let you use coal,gas,nuclear, hydro or Eolic power to power your cars and trucks with much less dependency on US controlled oil for industry and transportation.
ttul 6y ago
> Aside from blending small amounts on hydrogen in existing methane feeds, no one will do this. The province of Alberta, Canada has put hydrogen at the core of its energy development strategy. The idea is to use existing natural gas pipelines to transfer hydrogen. It’s true that a small fraction of hydrogen will permeate the pipes and leak; however, that leakage is not economically significant: “... this theoretical distribution main leakage rate (43 million ft3/yr) would be 0.0002% of the 24.13 trillion cubic feet of natural gas consumed in 2010.” [1] Hydrogen can be blended with natural gas (the above calculation was made assuming a 20% blend) or it can be sent down the line exclusively. As for how the hydrogen is produced, there are several ways: 1. It can be cracked from natural gas, after which the carbon is captured and stored back underground. Or, 2. It can be produced from electrolysis of water using energy from a renewable source such as wind or solar, effectively storing the energy for later use. Either way, the point is that hydrogen is a useful fuel that can be transported over existing infrastructure and then used in a variety of ways that may help with the transition to a zero carbon system. Just to give one example, hydrogen can be combined with carbon dioxide to create jet fuel. [2] [1] https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f11/blending_h2_nat_gas_pipeline.pdf https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f11/blending... [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-20214-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-20214-z

by yholio 6y ago

zbrozek 6y ago

It looks like you can blend something in the neighborhood of 10-15% hydrogen into the existing natural gas infrastructure without negative consequence. That's not game changing, but it's a significant environmental improvement if you're using renewables to produce it. It's a fine way to utilize daily or even seasonal renewables overproduction in a useful way without blowing up tons of existing infrastructure. Many diverse steps - some small, some large - are needed to get ourselves to a carbon negative lifestyle.

mojomark 6y ago

>>To produce Hidrogen, you need electric energy, or some very hot source that could be turn to electricity at a high efficiency. This is not a true statement... Aluminum alloys readily liberate H2 from H20 at room temperarure (an exothermic reaction generating roughly equal parts thermal and chemical potential energy - both of which of course can be used for work) [1]. The oxidized aluminum is environmentally benign and can be recycled by applying more energy to deoxydize the product. The 'purification' process is ultimately where the useful energy comes from. The energy to power the purification can come from any number of sources - but as good stewards, we opt for clean energy sources. Al smelting historically produced a lot of carbon, but thanks to R&D by Apple, there are new carbon-free alternatives for this process [2]. At my company we are researching application of this energy infrastructure loop for powering ships (where source water is abundant). Essentalially, the Al+ is your fuel (battery), and from a volumetric energy density perspective (important for ships), you can store about 2X as much as gasoline/diesel - and way better than liquified or compressed H2 storage. However, on a mass energy density perspective (important for automobiles), it is a bit worse (heavier) than hydrocarbon fuels. Again though, each application has it's own constraints when considering an energy storage medium. The automotive or civil sectors aren't the only use-cases for hydrogen fuel cells. One needs to take a look at all sectors to really grasp the global impact. A large part of my job is to explore this big-picutre aspect, because we need to understand the long term infrastructure stability/availability of potential "clean" energy supply chains, and it's VERY complex when you consider process efficiencies over the entire supply chain, raw material abundance and regeneration potential/economics/environmental impacts/speed, geopolitical forces affecting supply chains, the list goes on and on (and on). H2 is an interesting "energy storage" option and it will certainly continue to be researched and applied broadly. 1. PDF - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/aluminium_water_hydrogen.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjkm9f-juztAhUuwFkKHbPvBL4QFjABegQIBxAF&usg=AOvVaw1bMfnlyBgz28F8mDBPA7mN https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... 2. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/05/apple-paves-the-way-for-breakthrough-carbon-free-aluminum-smelting-method/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/05/apple-paves-the-way-f...

rini17 6y ago
100% of aluminium is made with electrical energy...
- mojomark 6y ago
  Actually, Al+ is purified by smelting, which is powered by applying thermal energy to a sample. As I alluded in my comment above, you can generate the thermal energy by any number of modes of energy transmission (electrical, chemical, RF radiation such as concentrated solar, nuclear, etc.). The primary point of the above comment was that you need electrical energy to produce H2. That's a false statement. Al+ can generate H2 without electricity. The important point is that the energy efficiency of any cyclic energy carrier system (batteries/chemical, mechanical, intertial, etc.) is only one, albeit important, factor. Other factors include mass and volumetric energy density, motion/environmental stability, cost, and so forth. The importance of each of these factors is weighted differently based on the application (e.g. automobiles, ships, trains, aircraft, domestic use, etc.).

iso1210 6y ago

> Aside from blending small amounts on hydrogen in existing methane feeds What's "small"? 20% hydrogen on existing grid in place now: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/24/hydrogen-uk-gas-grid-keele-university https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/24/hydrogen... 100% hydrogen trial over next few years: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/scottish-homes-will-use-100-percent-green-hydrogen-in-world-first/ar-BB1buybb https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/scottish-homes-wil... Hydrogen has suddenly skyrocketed up the agenda in Europe this year. There is a pressure group called Hydrogen Europe (which oddly doesn't even have a wikipedia page) which comprises companies like BP, Shell, Total, Equinor, Repsol, Engie, OMV, PKN Orlen, Hellenic Petroleum, and many more. At the same time almost 100% of hydrogen used in europe comes from oil. It concerns me how much government subsidy (both cash and regulations) is being pushed into hydrogen. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-8970377/SMALL-CAP-MOVERS-Hydrogen-companies-lifted-UK-green-recovery-plan.html https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-8970377/... "Hydrogen companies were given a boost this week after the Prime Minister vowed to inject £500million to 'turn water into energy' as part of a 10-point plan for Britain's green recovery. However, critics say the targets are nowhere near enough compared to Germany's and France's respective plans to invest €9billion and €7billion in hydrogen."

bumbada 6y ago
Everything has gotten subsidies in the past. Coal got it in Germany, Spain, Rusia,Poland, Norway and of course England. Places like current Bangladesh supported coal mines in England. Certainly oil got it later, but few places in Europe had it compared to coal. Refineries grew costing lots of billions. Then natural gas got it with the investment of big gasoducts. Then it was renewables. Hydrogen is just the next step, because it is the cornerstone of the chemical synthesis process, not just transportation. Hydrogen and electricity are just "vectors". They let you use coal,gas,nuclear, hydro or Eolic power to power your cars and trucks with much less dependency on US controlled oil for industry and transportation.

ttul 6y ago

> Aside from blending small amounts on hydrogen in existing methane feeds, no one will do this. The province of Alberta, Canada has put hydrogen at the core of its energy development strategy. The idea is to use existing natural gas pipelines to transfer hydrogen. It’s true that a small fraction of hydrogen will permeate the pipes and leak; however, that leakage is not economically significant: “... this theoretical distribution main leakage rate (43 million ft3/yr) would be 0.0002% of the 24.13 trillion cubic feet of natural gas consumed in 2010.” [1] Hydrogen can be blended with natural gas (the above calculation was made assuming a 20% blend) or it can be sent down the line exclusively. As for how the hydrogen is produced, there are several ways: 1. It can be cracked from natural gas, after which the carbon is captured and stored back underground. Or, 2. It can be produced from electrolysis of water using energy from a renewable source such as wind or solar, effectively storing the energy for later use. Either way, the point is that hydrogen is a useful fuel that can be transported over existing infrastructure and then used in a variety of ways that may help with the transition to a zero carbon system. Just to give one example, hydrogen can be combined with carbon dioxide to create jet fuel. [2] [1] https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f11/blending_h2_nat_gas_pipeline.pdf https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f11/blending... [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-20214-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-20214-z