5 ms·

San Francisco Set to Ban Unsolicited Phone Books

86 points by nowsourcing 15y ago

brk 15y ago
I would love to see this nationwide. Every time another 3" thick unwanted phonebook is left by my mailbox it just irritates the hell out of me. I can't believe there are still enough businesses that want to advertise in yellow pages to make it a viable industry for ONE providers, much less 3 or 4.
corin_ 15y ago
When's the last time you looked up a number in the phone book? For us, it was probably around 1999. Actually I like having it downstairs, I find it quicker than looking up on my phone, and saves the hassle of getting to a computer. That said, I do agree that shipping that many trees to so many people who don't want them is pretty awful.
mikeryan 15y ago
I keep telling my wife that if I were Mayor, that it would be legal to leaflet cars, but it would be a $5 fine for every one found on the ground. Sticking those things under my wiper is like saying "here you throw this away"[1]. [1] credit to Mitch Hedberg
- jrockway 15y ago
  I have this problem where people come into the building I live in and slide ads under my door. I just slide them back out again.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
blahedo 15y ago
I actually use my phone book at least two or three times a year; partly because some of the information just isn't easily findable online (I live in a smaller city) and partly because it's sometimes just more convenient to look it up in the book. That said, I don't know that I need an updated book every single year.
brandall10 15y ago
Awesome. A few years back I was on the board of my HOA (77 unit loft structure in downtown San Diego) and this was an issue that came up every quarter. We repeatedly asked for them to stop doing it - that it was wasteful, that it was unwanted solicitation against our CC&Rs, didn't matter. The phone company left 77 phone books in our lobby every time. Within the same day we had maintenance dump the whole lot in the recycling bin. The main issue is that the recipients of the books aren't the clients, the advertisers are. That this is unwanted activity makes no difference to them. As long as they can claim to deliver a phone book, they can use that as a statistic for advertisers. If you want to stop this activity one tactic might be to alert major advertisers.
michaelhalligan 15y ago
Finally, I've been trying to convince my landlord to stop allowing phone books for the past two years. Beyond the waste, the amount of trust we give to strangers delivering phone books is absurd. I've always thought if I wanted to case an apartment/condo building to figure out who leaves their doors unlocked, I'd show up with a pickup truck and some phone books. The security guard would just let me in without question.
dkarl 15y ago
Please let this spread nationwide and be generalized to more forms of advertising. It's just littering at this point. I know somebody pays for them, but people pay for their fast food wrappers, too, and they aren't allowed to leave them on other people's porches. I paid for the beer in my fridge, but I'm not going to leave a bag of empties hanging from my neighbor's doorknob. I really don't know how the legal exception works, how the law distinguishes one act of spewing worthless crap into the environment from another, but it should be possible to cut down on the constant flyers under wiper blades, takeout menus on doorknobs, etc., and still let people put up posters about lost pets, local missing persons, and neighborhood garage sales.
- pstack 15y ago
  I couldn't agree more. I can't keep up with all of the advertising local shops and eateries and services leave on my door (which inevitably end up blown all over my yard and in the bushes and the window wells) and it makes huge mess - especially if it rains before I get to them. The last thing I need on top of that is the damn phone book (and, of course, you usually have multiple phone books). The first thing I do when I get those on my door step is close the door behind me and walk them to the trash. I have not used a phone book in a decade, but have thrown away a minimum of thirty.
- blhack 15y ago
  One of the big problems with the [related] abuse of the mail system is that it is effectively a denial of service attack against legitimate messages. Nearly everything that comes into my mail slot gets binned. I figure: if somebody cares enough about sending me a slip of paper, they will either send it Fed Ex, or they will email it to me; nobody uses the postal system for anything other than trash. In fact, I wonder what the legality of literally mailing garbage is. USPS flat-rate boxes are something like $5, and I could fit a lot of apple cores, orange peels, and coffee grounds into one of those things. In fact, my sister is soon due to have a kid. I'd pay to have her mail the dirty diapers to whoever keeps sending me paper spam. That this is an accepted abuse of the postal system is absurd.
  - MichaelGG 15y ago
phaedrus 15y ago
When my wife and I moved out of our apartment a few years ago, after most of the stuff was moved out including the computers, we happened to need to look up a phone number. It literally did not occur to us that there was even a way to look up a phone number without using the internet. Meanwhile we were tripping over a pile of dusty yellow books that were one of the last things we left in the apartment (and weren't taking with us). After 20 minutes I finally remembered "oh, that's what those yellow books are for". It's just how infrequently we've cracked open a phone book - which is to say never since 1993. I can tell you, for anyone in their 20's, that phone book goes straight from the doorstep to the dustbin, just like the paper newspaper. Good riddance!
lotusleaf1987 15y ago
While I wholeheartedly agree with conserving our natural resources, I'm pretty sure this law is going to be overturned on the basis that it is unconstitutional and violates the First Amendment's freedom of speech. It's been a long time since my Constitutional Law class, but IIRC there are many precedents, several involving Jehova's witnesses (they were a persecuted minority at the time), passing out leaflets and flyers and having similar laws passed and overturned. Here's a similar situation in Texas in 2005: http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/federal-judge-texas-man-may-leaflet-in-illinois-state-building http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/federal-judge-texas-man-... U.S. District Judge Ruben Castillo ruled earlier this month that the law violates the Constitution because it gives state officials too much discretion in determining when to issue permits and prohibits religious exhibits. Castillo also faulted the law for banning people who want to distribute leaflets from approaching the public without providing an exception in cases where people consent to being approached. “The judge reaffirmed the First Amendment principles and showed that the First Amendment rights are valued in Chicago,” said Elizabeth Murray, whose client Kevin Cantrell filed the lawsuit in April 2004 against officials at the Thompson Center and the state Department of Central Management Services. The center is the state's main government building in Chicago. “This also protects more than just religious leafletters. It protects all who want to leaflet, so it is of great value to the citizens of Illinois,” said Murray, an attorney for the Alliance Defense Fund, which represented Cantrell.
- joshaidan 15y ago
  I'm interested to find out if you're right. I guess ultimately it will take advertisers pulling their ads from the yellow pages for them to stop publishing it.
- rhizome 15y ago
  I'm pretty sure this law is going to be overturned on the basis that it is unconstitutional and violates the First Amendment's freedom of speech Nobody's saying they can't print the books, they just can't dump their spam garbage on my stoop like they do every four months.
  - lotusleaf1987 15y ago
stretchwithme 15y ago
Isn't crazy that people are allowed to dump things on your house and car? And this is protected because somehow it is free speech? Forget that it forces you to clean up afterwards. So companies can impose costs upon you. You have to be responsible and see the garbage to its rightful place. And deal with garbage all over the urban landscape. But if we changed this and required companies to ask first, this would supposedly be too costly for them. But only because we've been forced to subsidize their activities all along.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
ambiguity 15y ago
Apparently you can opt out at: http://yellowpagesoptout.com/ http://yellowpagesoptout.com/ If enough people do so then it would achieve the same thing.
- MichaelGG 15y ago
  No, if enough people do that, it sets a precedence that "opt out" of harmful behaviour is acceptable. Instead, it should be opt-in.
Duff 15y ago
I could live with the ONE phonebook that I would have used in the days when you actually used phonebooks. But nowadays, I never use the phonebook (and I'm a weirdo who still mails letters), but there seems to be like a half dozen phonebook providers.
tzs 15y ago
Seattle has already done this, except in Seattle it is an opt-out list, similar to the "do not call" list. There was a story about this on NPR today, and they compared Seattle's approach to San Francisco's. The SF approach is drawing a lot of opposition from advocates and aid groups from the poor and the elderly. The fear is that there are a lot of people who do not use online directories and depend on their phone books to look up numbers. In general, when you have some service that at one point nearly everyone depends on, and then as time passes many people start needing less and less, it seems to me to make the most sense to switch it to an opt-out service for existing people so that you don't disrupt those who still depend on it, and make it opt-in for new people.
premchai21 15y ago
Actually, I'm in the target audience for phone books. I love receiving those (within reason). I wish I had more right now. Why? Two main reasons. One is for actually looking up local telephone numbers. I prefer this to looking them up on the Web in many cases: the paper book doesn't call home, the business directory is harder to game, and it's all pre-localized. And it doesn't take away the choice of looking things up on the Web if I feel it's necessary, at the cost of some extra traceability &c. The second reason is that I use extras as structural supports. Monitor too low (for instance)? Wrap phone book in duct tape. Now it's a brick. Construct environmental modifications out of phone bricks. They're relatively light while being solid, and they're already bound together, so you don't have the trouble of trying to make the rectilinear shape ex nihilo. I suppose I could buy stacks of newsprint paper or something, but going out and buying things is awkward, and phone books are often distributed free, so I'm only paying for time and duct tape.

86 points by nowsourcing 15y ago

brk 15y ago

I would love to see this nationwide. Every time another 3" thick unwanted phonebook is left by my mailbox it just irritates the hell out of me. I can't believe there are still enough businesses that want to advertise in yellow pages to make it a viable industry for ONE providers, much less 3 or 4.

corin_ 15y ago

When's the last time you looked up a number in the phone book? For us, it was probably around 1999. Actually I like having it downstairs, I find it quicker than looking up on my phone, and saves the hassle of getting to a computer. That said, I do agree that shipping that many trees to so many people who don't want them is pretty awful.

mikeryan 15y ago

I keep telling my wife that if I were Mayor, that it would be legal to leaflet cars, but it would be a $5 fine for every one found on the ground. Sticking those things under my wiper is like saying "here you throw this away"[1]. [1] credit to Mitch Hedberg

jrockway 15y ago
I have this problem where people come into the building I live in and slide ads under my door. I just slide them back out again.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

blahedo 15y ago

I actually use my phone book at least two or three times a year; partly because some of the information just isn't easily findable online (I live in a smaller city) and partly because it's sometimes just more convenient to look it up in the book. That said, I don't know that I need an updated book every single year.

brandall10 15y ago

Awesome. A few years back I was on the board of my HOA (77 unit loft structure in downtown San Diego) and this was an issue that came up every quarter. We repeatedly asked for them to stop doing it - that it was wasteful, that it was unwanted solicitation against our CC&Rs, didn't matter. The phone company left 77 phone books in our lobby every time. Within the same day we had maintenance dump the whole lot in the recycling bin. The main issue is that the recipients of the books aren't the clients, the advertisers are. That this is unwanted activity makes no difference to them. As long as they can claim to deliver a phone book, they can use that as a statistic for advertisers. If you want to stop this activity one tactic might be to alert major advertisers.

michaelhalligan 15y ago

Finally, I've been trying to convince my landlord to stop allowing phone books for the past two years. Beyond the waste, the amount of trust we give to strangers delivering phone books is absurd. I've always thought if I wanted to case an apartment/condo building to figure out who leaves their doors unlocked, I'd show up with a pickup truck and some phone books. The security guard would just let me in without question.

dkarl 15y ago

Please let this spread nationwide and be generalized to more forms of advertising. It's just littering at this point. I know somebody pays for them, but people pay for their fast food wrappers, too, and they aren't allowed to leave them on other people's porches. I paid for the beer in my fridge, but I'm not going to leave a bag of empties hanging from my neighbor's doorknob. I really don't know how the legal exception works, how the law distinguishes one act of spewing worthless crap into the environment from another, but it should be possible to cut down on the constant flyers under wiper blades, takeout menus on doorknobs, etc., and still let people put up posters about lost pets, local missing persons, and neighborhood garage sales.

pstack 15y ago
I couldn't agree more. I can't keep up with all of the advertising local shops and eateries and services leave on my door (which inevitably end up blown all over my yard and in the bushes and the window wells) and it makes huge mess - especially if it rains before I get to them. The last thing I need on top of that is the damn phone book (and, of course, you usually have multiple phone books). The first thing I do when I get those on my door step is close the door behind me and walk them to the trash. I have not used a phone book in a decade, but have thrown away a minimum of thirty.
blhack 15y ago
One of the big problems with the [related] abuse of the mail system is that it is effectively a denial of service attack against legitimate messages. Nearly everything that comes into my mail slot gets binned. I figure: if somebody cares enough about sending me a slip of paper, they will either send it Fed Ex, or they will email it to me; nobody uses the postal system for anything other than trash. In fact, I wonder what the legality of literally mailing garbage is. USPS flat-rate boxes are something like $5, and I could fit a lot of apple cores, orange peels, and coffee grounds into one of those things. In fact, my sister is soon due to have a kid. I'd pay to have her mail the dirty diapers to whoever keeps sending me paper spam. That this is an accepted abuse of the postal system is absurd.
- MichaelGG 15y ago

phaedrus 15y ago

When my wife and I moved out of our apartment a few years ago, after most of the stuff was moved out including the computers, we happened to need to look up a phone number. It literally did not occur to us that there was even a way to look up a phone number without using the internet. Meanwhile we were tripping over a pile of dusty yellow books that were one of the last things we left in the apartment (and weren't taking with us). After 20 minutes I finally remembered "oh, that's what those yellow books are for". It's just how infrequently we've cracked open a phone book - which is to say never since 1993. I can tell you, for anyone in their 20's, that phone book goes straight from the doorstep to the dustbin, just like the paper newspaper. Good riddance!

lotusleaf1987 15y ago

While I wholeheartedly agree with conserving our natural resources, I'm pretty sure this law is going to be overturned on the basis that it is unconstitutional and violates the First Amendment's freedom of speech. It's been a long time since my Constitutional Law class, but IIRC there are many precedents, several involving Jehova's witnesses (they were a persecuted minority at the time), passing out leaflets and flyers and having similar laws passed and overturned. Here's a similar situation in Texas in 2005: http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/federal-judge-texas-man-may-leaflet-in-illinois-state-building http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/federal-judge-texas-man-... U.S. District Judge Ruben Castillo ruled earlier this month that the law violates the Constitution because it gives state officials too much discretion in determining when to issue permits and prohibits religious exhibits. Castillo also faulted the law for banning people who want to distribute leaflets from approaching the public without providing an exception in cases where people consent to being approached. “The judge reaffirmed the First Amendment principles and showed that the First Amendment rights are valued in Chicago,” said Elizabeth Murray, whose client Kevin Cantrell filed the lawsuit in April 2004 against officials at the Thompson Center and the state Department of Central Management Services. The center is the state's main government building in Chicago. “This also protects more than just religious leafletters. It protects all who want to leaflet, so it is of great value to the citizens of Illinois,” said Murray, an attorney for the Alliance Defense Fund, which represented Cantrell.

joshaidan 15y ago
I'm interested to find out if you're right. I guess ultimately it will take advertisers pulling their ads from the yellow pages for them to stop publishing it.
rhizome 15y ago
I'm pretty sure this law is going to be overturned on the basis that it is unconstitutional and violates the First Amendment's freedom of speech Nobody's saying they can't print the books, they just can't dump their spam garbage on my stoop like they do every four months.
- lotusleaf1987 15y ago

stretchwithme 15y ago

Isn't crazy that people are allowed to dump things on your house and car? And this is protected because somehow it is free speech? Forget that it forces you to clean up afterwards. So companies can impose costs upon you. You have to be responsible and see the garbage to its rightful place. And deal with garbage all over the urban landscape. But if we changed this and required companies to ask first, this would supposedly be too costly for them. But only because we've been forced to subsidize their activities all along.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

ambiguity 15y ago

Apparently you can opt out at: http://yellowpagesoptout.com/ http://yellowpagesoptout.com/ If enough people do so then it would achieve the same thing.

MichaelGG 15y ago
No, if enough people do that, it sets a precedence that "opt out" of harmful behaviour is acceptable. Instead, it should be opt-in.

Duff 15y ago

I could live with the ONE phonebook that I would have used in the days when you actually used phonebooks. But nowadays, I never use the phonebook (and I'm a weirdo who still mails letters), but there seems to be like a half dozen phonebook providers.

tzs 15y ago

Seattle has already done this, except in Seattle it is an opt-out list, similar to the "do not call" list. There was a story about this on NPR today, and they compared Seattle's approach to San Francisco's. The SF approach is drawing a lot of opposition from advocates and aid groups from the poor and the elderly. The fear is that there are a lot of people who do not use online directories and depend on their phone books to look up numbers. In general, when you have some service that at one point nearly everyone depends on, and then as time passes many people start needing less and less, it seems to me to make the most sense to switch it to an opt-out service for existing people so that you don't disrupt those who still depend on it, and make it opt-in for new people.

premchai21 15y ago

Actually, I'm in the target audience for phone books. I love receiving those (within reason). I wish I had more right now. Why? Two main reasons. One is for actually looking up local telephone numbers. I prefer this to looking them up on the Web in many cases: the paper book doesn't call home, the business directory is harder to game, and it's all pre-localized. And it doesn't take away the choice of looking things up on the Web if I feel it's necessary, at the cost of some extra traceability &c. The second reason is that I use extras as structural supports. Monitor too low (for instance)? Wrap phone book in duct tape. Now it's a brick. Construct environmental modifications out of phone bricks. They're relatively light while being solid, and they're already bound together, so you don't have the trouble of trying to make the rectilinear shape ex nihilo. I suppose I could buy stacks of newsprint paper or something, but going out and buying things is awkward, and phone books are often distributed free, so I'm only paying for time and duct tape.